I have a 55 gallon, How many darters & darter species could I keep in it should I switch it over to a darter tank. My local darter species is the tesselated but I see theres several others I really like like the green sided, banded, rainbow, tangerine...ect.

Also would there be a problem mixing daces in with them like the black nosed?

Edited by exasperatus2002, 20 July 2010 - 09:42 AM.

I have a 55 gallon, How many darters & darter species could I keep in it should I switch it over to a darter tank.

You could keep quite a few in a 55. There usually aren't many problems keeping different species together

Also would there be a problem mixing daces in with them like the black nosed?

That would not be a problem, infact I would recomend keeping something else with the darters. The darters will spend most of their time on or near the bottom, so it will be a more interesting aquarium to have something swimming in the mid and upper levels. I have southern redbellied dace, redsided dace, longnosed dace, blacknosed dace, spotfin shiners and a common shiner in a 75 gallon with rainbow and fantail darters.
One thing though, the minnows will tend to feed much more aggressively than the darters so you may need to find a way of distracting them when you feed so that the darters will get some food as well. What I do is feed the minnows first by adding floating pellets to one corner of the tank, and while they are busy eating I feed the darters frozen food in the opposite corner. This works well for me.

You can keep a bunch together, basically. But I wouldn't think about tangerines, as a species that needs cool, clean, strongly flowing water more than the others.

Bruce is right -- please evaluate the habitat requirements for each desired species (available on Natureserve Explorer under the 'Ecology and Life History' tab) to determine if what you are taking home is ethical.

Also, going out and sampling is the best way to find out which species live together -- I know many streams that have Etheostoma flabellare, Etheostoma spectabile, and Etheostoma zonale together in the same riffles with Etheostoma nigrum and Percina maculata occurring in the slower portions of the same stream. The usual line-up of cyprinids in a typical Illinois stream are Campostoma anomalum, Cyprinella lutrensis, Cyprinella spiloptera, Phenacobius mirabilis, and Pimephales notatus. What I'm getting at is that if I were setting up a 75-125 gallon Illinois-theme aquarium I would probably have a few of each species; do the same for your area!

Edited by blakemarkwell, 20 July 2010 - 01:09 PM.

I've got 11 Etheostoma spectabile (orangethroat darters) in my 55 gallon tank, and I noticed that they inhabit the entire tank from substrate to surface if you add plants that span that distance and surface dwelling fry.

The swordtails in my aquarium gave birth to fry. About half of swordtail fry sink to the bottom for their first hours of life, and half of them are free swimming and head directly to the surface. The darters noticed this, of course, and followed the trend toward the top. They sit nestled in my hornwort now, happy as can be, keeping their eye out for unwary fry. They're very bad at catching the fry, though, so don't expect that to serve as any sort of food source. But it seems to keep them entertained. Like sport.

Oh, they do seem to need a slight current in order to feel comfortable swimming. It was only after the powerhead was added (300 Gallons Per Hour, $45 from RMS Aquaculture) that they took to the plants.

Here is a picture of my setup (This was taken before the powerhead was added). I will update later with a new picture of the setup and a picture of a darter nestled in the plants three quarters of the way up the tank. Notice how the plants reach from substrate to surface, with little ledges along the way for them to stop on.

Edited by Okiimiru, 21 July 2010 - 10:22 AM.

I will update later with a new picture of the setup and a picture of a darter nestled in the plants three quarters of the way up the tank.

Here are the photos, as promised:

Edited by Okiimiru, 22 July 2010 - 06:14 AM.

I have a 55 gallon, How many darters & darter species could I keep in it should I switch it over to a darter tank. My local darter species is the tesselated but I see theres several others I really like like the green sided, banded, rainbow, tangerine...ect.

Also would there be a problem mixing daces in with them like the black nosed?

The best thing you did was come to this website, asking questions prior to making your decision.

Since I don't know your background in the aquarium hobby, maybe you have considered most if not all of the following. Not only do I agree with Blake as different darters prefer different habitats which may differ in water flow, temperature, ph, hardness, substrate, plants or not etc... how "heavy" you load you aquarium will depend on numerous other variables. What filtration are you planning to use? Adult size of the fish? Regular water changes? Can you meet the food requirements? Aggresiveness?

Some people have the commercial "tropical fish" mentality thinking they can throw anything together in a tank because we like this or that fish and don't give enough consideration for what individual fish need. Or they get the fish then wonder why their fish end up with problems. Certainly it is possible keep different fish together(to a point), and the fish may survive but if their needs aren't met will they be remain healthy and showing their best? Anything's possible but most likely not. Too many times I have seen people leave the hobby or change types of fish because they "failed" or it was more work than they expected etc... when all they had initially to do was ask questions and investigate. Hopefully you'll find keeping these fish an enjoyable experience.

The best thing you did was come to this website, asking questions prior to making your decision.

Since I don't know your background in the aquarium hobby, maybe you have considered most if not all of the following. Not only do I agree with Blake as different darters prefer different habitats which may differ in water flow, temperature, ph, hardness, substrate, plants or not etc... how "heavy" you load you aquarium will depend on numerous other variables. What filtration are you planning to use? Adult size of the fish? Regular water changes? Can you meet the food requirements? Aggresiveness?

Some people have the commercial "tropical fish" mentality thinking they can throw anything together in a tank because we like this or that fish and don't give enough consideration for what individual fish need. Or they get the fish then wonder why their fish end up with problems. Certainly it is possible keep different fish together(to a point), and the fish may survive but if their needs aren't met will they be remain healthy and showing their best? Anything's possible but most likely not. Too many times I have seen people leave the hobby or change types of fish because they "failed" or it was more work than they expected etc... when all they had initially to do was ask questions and investigate. Hopefully you'll find keeping these fish an enjoyable experience.

Thank you. I've never kept natives before but have bred 13 species of tropical fish, mostly african cichlids along with a few other non africans like discus, threadfin rainbowfish (that was was an accident) and bumblebee gobies (really cool life cycle). Im currently trying to spawn Synodontis multipunctatus. I have two pairs that are ready but my cichids arent. So I have to wait. They are my favorite catfish. They are parasitic breeders like the bird they're named after. The cuckoo catfish waits till a mouth brooding cichlid is spawning and swoop thru leaving their eggs behind for the female cichlid to pick up and care for. Their eggs hatch first and eat the baby cichlids before the mother releases them. I'd like to eventually keep natives but I always do my homework first. That and Im still talking my wife into letting me set up another 55 gallon tank.

Some people have the commercial "tropical fish" mentality thinking they can throw anything together in a tank because we like this or that fish and don't give enough consideration for what individual fish need. Or they get the fish then wonder why their fish end up with problems. Certainly it is possible keep different fish together(to a point), and the fish may survive but if their needs aren't met will they be remain healthy and showing their best? Anything's possible but most likely not.

If that was a jibe at me or at people like me who house fish from different areas of the world within the same aquarium, then I'd like to defend myself and them.  Yes, I did mention earlier in this topic that I keep swordtails and darters together.  In fact I keep 6 bettas, 20 to 30 swordtails, and 11 orangethroat darters together.  Don't gasp in horror and surprise.  All of the fish get along, they all live within their preferred water requirement, and all of the fish are capable of living comfortably and even breeding in the setup of the tank.  Just because they all come from different continents does not mean that them inhabiting the same aquarium waters is unholy or wrong. 

I think a lot of the people who are members of NANFA have this strong,  irrational dislike of mixing native and exotic fish in the same tank.  When really, there would be a lot more people willing to embrace native fish as pets if natives were introduced to people as possible cohabitors of tanks with species of fish that they already know and love.  The way to get more people to love native fish is to embrace native and exotic cohabitation, not shun it.  Because in truth, some of these native fish are really great, and I'd like to see people able to buy them from pet stores and learn to like them, too.

Edited by Okiimiru, 24 July 2010 - 11:38 PM.

I think what Ken was getting at is most North American natives have environmental preferences that are markedly different from Amazonian or Congolese species. Most NA natives live in waters at the top of their thermal optima range, so keeping them in a truly tropical tank year-round is a slow, cumulative stress. Your darters would be OK with extended exposure to 40 deg. F water, obviously the bettas and most swordtails wouldn't.

If that was a jibe at me or at people like me who house fish from different areas of the world within the same aquarium, then I'd like to defend myself and them.  Yes, I did mention earlier in this topic that I keep swordtails and darters together.  In fact I keep 6 bettas, 20 to 30 swordtails, and 11 orangethroat darters together.  Don't gasp in horror and surprise.  All of the fish get along, they all live within their preferred water requirement, and all of the fish are capable of living comfortably and even breeding in the setup of the tank.  Just because they all come from different continents does not mean that them inhabiting the same aquarium waters is unholy or wrong. 

I think a lot of the people who are members of NANFA have this strong,  irrational dislike of mixing native and exotic fish in the same tank.  When really, there would be a lot more people willing to embrace native fish as pets if natives were introduced to people as possible cohabitors of tanks with species of fish that they already know and love.  The way to get more people to love native fish is to embrace native and exotic cohabitation, not shun it.  Because in truth, some of these native fish are really great, and I'd like to see people able to buy them from pet stores and learn to like them, too.

Sorry I hadn't come back to this thread earlier.

My reference to the commercial tropical fish mentality (if that is what you interperated as a jab) was simply refering to when most if not all of us entered the hobby all excited by the different colors and shapes, expecting we could purchase about any fish or plant and they would thrive together. Afterall, if the pet store sells them they must go together right? Then we find out through some mishap(s) that wasn't the case. It can be the same when discovering a new type of fish that same mentality wants to come back.

Though my post had nothing to do with combining native and exotic it does apply when combining fish from temperate and tropical climates if the goal is to have them flourish. Fundulus gave a perfect example and I thank him for that. When keeping a community tank it's almost impossible to meet all of the requirements for each individual variety of fish unless they all come from the same water system. So you have to fudge a bit be it PH, Hardness, Temp etc. to find ranges they all can tolerate.

My personal belief is we shouldn't expect fish/plants to adapt to just any environment they are given. Instead, we should try and adapt the environment to their needs. You asking about Orangethroats needs and adding more current and foods are examples of what I am talking about. Different fish flourish in different environments. Why? Because their specific requirements are met.

I don't know why you formed that particular opinion about some NANFA members. Maybe you're confusing irrational dislike with passion or preference. Maybe there's concern this site created for natives could become diluted with questions regarding tropicals and are being protective of that. Afterall how many sites are dedicated to tropicals vs. NA natives? I could be wrong, I have been once or twice before. Personally, I keep Natives specifically because it is easier to meet their requirements and it's a new challenge.

Darters are great fish i keep mine with southern redbellied dace,blacknose dace,hornyheadchub,and central stone rollers. works well i want to switch my 90 gal from a pair of dempseys to a native tank. i can sit and watch my natives for hours.