I Feel Dumb Even Posting This.

I feel like I've only been in the hobby a day right now...I went on vacation last week and left someone in charge of my tanks (DUMB). I left instructions for each tank. Pretty simple right? NOPE. As Irate would say (they are all gonna die) and for the most part he is right. so she was feeding my tanks every other day. so it was a mon then a wed. I got home friday to find over 17 fish dead! yup 17 fish. a mix of banded sunfish, bluespotted sunfish, banded killifish, marginated madtom, and central mudminnows. WTF. looking at their bodies it looks like red blood spots on the fish. my first thought was overfeeding and ammonia poisoning. Banded sunfish that i had left had there eves basically bulging out of their heads...I did like a 90% water change. then i thought maybe just take them in bring them into another tank...well that was dumb....so i moved them to another 55 and low and behold some more fish started dying...both from the old tank and now fish from the introduced tank. again a 80% water change....didnt help....then i added kosher salt with that water change...woke up to have 5 more dead fish. including some very important VA fish. So i went and got some pimafix. by the time i got home 3 more fish...including a blacknose dace i added 2 days ago (he was going to be a feeder of my pickerel) looking at his body he has those same red blood spots on him. some fish look like they have a fungus as well. so i added the primafix...and i shall wait and see. i cant lose anymore fish. ive never ever lost this amount of fish. now i have an empty 55 and some killer disease working on my other 55. my redfin tank is fine and both my salt water tanks are fine. i do not have a testkit because usually i never have problems anymore. but if it was ammonia how could it kill 1 day after a 80-90% water change. that seems highly unlikely. suggestions?

I am a bit pushed for time, but whenever I hear about something like this, I automatically think of poisoning. When there are major die-offs I seem to think the most likely candidate is some sort of house hold chemical (cleaners, detergents, etc.) got into the tank via direct contact, or from someone's hands.. It is hard to imagine that anything else could work so fast and kill so many fish.

I am a bit pushed for time, but whenever I hear about something like this, I automatically think of poisoning. When there are major die-offs I seem to think the most likely candidate is some sort of house hold chemical (cleaners, detergents, etc.) got into the tank via direct contact, or from someone's hands.. It is hard to imagine that anything else could work so fast and kill so many fish.

you know what...that didnt even hit me. but like i said i removed the fish from that tank and put them in another tank and then fish from both tanks continue to die. ugh. this is horrible.

That really sucks!
What do the red spots and fungus look like? Where were these spots? I got fish TB a while back that burned through one of my 55s, I also caught it myself-from scratching my hand while working in the tank. This may not be what you have but it reminds me of what I went through.
BTW if it is that, they say it is incurable, but I at least managed to stop it. I described it in this forum. It was an expensive cure though.

Edited by Elijah, 04 August 2010 - 11:11 PM.

That's what happens when someone else takes care of your tanks. Voice of experience.

I'm sorry to say that I have heard this story many times. No matter how much time you try to spend showing someone how to feed your fish things go wrong. This might sound horrible but unless I am going to be gone for more than a week the fish don't get fed. This seldom happens since I usually have a whole bunch of fry to be fed and they wouldn't last a week. I am lucky though a fish keeping friend of over 35 years lives right around the corner from me and we cover for each other. Good healthy fish will be hungry after a week but they will usually be alive. There are other factors to consider. Was the power off at all? I agree with Unclewillie, it sounds like poisoning. Ask her if she used any glass cleaner around the tanks. Glass cleaner = Ammonia and could cause the reaction you are describing. The Presidents Message in this months American Killifish Associations Business Newsletter talks about how he prepared someone to care for his fish while he was away and it sounded like it worked out well. I think you might be able to read it online.

Sorry to hear this man! The only thing I can say is use it as a learning lesson!

Sorry to hear this man! The only thing I can say is use it as a learning lesson!

yeah it sucks that ive spent so much time collecting these fish.

i just did a 100% WC. overnight i lost 5 more fish...including my last MRBD and My roanoke darter. those 2 had special meaning to me. collected those last year in Virginia. That really sucks. I almost feel like i dont even wanna setup my tanks again. now the one empty 55 is going to be saltwater natives. that leaves 3 tanks fresh...3 tanks salt.

man that sucks. my wife had a freind that was going to look after my fish when we went on vacy but i decliend glad i did. but never let a set back make you think of not setting up your tanks. though i understand the way you feel my natives are more dear than my cichlids something about going and getting them that makes them special.

You wouldn't happen to be using a dechlorinator, that doesn't handle chloramines, would you? If so, I would suspect that your water supplier may have switched to using chloramines. If this is the case, you would have a lot of ammonia in the water after a simple dechlorinator was used.

Nope we have well water

I'm sorry Justin. I've experienced frustrating losses, I think all long time fish keepers have at one time or another. It's even worse when they are irreplaceable fish. I hope you find out what happened.

I had my hubby feed my fish once while I was away for over a week. I put the appropriate amount of food into dixie cups for each tank and told him, "Dump those in on Monday and Thursday. Don't do anything else. If there is a problem, call me." If he couldn't get a hold of me, he was to call a LFS I have a good relationship with.

I feel your loss. Lucky for me my friend owns the LFS and doesn't need instruction. When i go in vacation I have him stop over every 2 or 3 days to feed the fish (leave him some beer and he is happy). Except that last time I was gone for 5 days I did not have anyone come over - most of my fish are australoian and new guinea rainbow fish - they are capable of surviving a dry season they can handle 5 days w/o food! BUT I had just re-shuffled species around, done water changes and put 3 fairly rare species, all large breeding groups into a 80gallon. Came home tank was empty, popped a leak....all were dead. I re-sealed the tank and filled it back up. get back on that horse!

You said that "looking at their bodies it looks like red blood spots on the fish". When I read that I cringed. It's not the ammonia, it's a disease. And not a fun one.
Here is a list of fish diseases that cause red bloody spots on fish:

Viral hemmorrhagic septicemia. Info and pictures: http://www.invasives...ities/vhs.shtml

Bacterial hemmorrhagic septicemia (Aeromonas Hydrophila). Info: http://answers.yahoo...24184131AAPCpvv
And this is a good page: (scroll down if the page doesn't immediately show up) http://www.daff.gov....typical_strains

Furunculosis. Info and pictures: (scroll down if it doesn't immediately show up) http://www.daff.gov....sh/furunculosis
Once I had a zebra danio with it. It looked like someone took a melon baller to the side of the fish. This isn't quite what you described, but I hope your fish had furunculosis instead of viral hemmorrhagic septicemia.

I don't mean to disagree with the people who already said stuff, but if it was one of the above diseases then it wasn't the person who was watching your fish's fault. They aren't familiar with fish and they wouldn't know how to diagnose and treat a disease. Actually, everyone on this website hates me already so it doesn't seem to matter what I say any more, but I just thought that someone should stick up for this poor person who was watching the fish. It's not their fault this crazy killer disease struck. That's why I always leave the people who watch my fish with the instructions that, "Fish are gonna die while I'm gone. You can't avoid it; it's gonna happen. Check the tank every time you feed them for dead bodies and remove them. But don't stress out too much. It's not your fault." Then usually no fish die. But it's worth telling someone, that way they remove the diseased bodies.

Edit: Oh, and I'm adding this to my post. I just saw that you did a 100% water change at one point. Never do that. If you read Diana Walstad's book, she has some [pretty crazy sounding] ideas about how you never actually need to change the water at all (she does it I think she said once every couple of months, 10 to 15 percent). Anyway, I used to think that the woman was insane, but as I age I'm starting to agree with her. Or at least I'm starting to admit that water changes stress fish. For some fish, especially fragile fish who are possibly diseased, a 100% water change might be the final straw and might break the camel's back (kill the fragile fish). So never chance 100% of your water at a time. It stresses out fish. And sometimes a sick fish won't be able to survive it.
Except, of course, in the instance of poison in the water. But I've poisoned my fish a couple times now, and they survive much better if you change the water 10% every two hours than if you do one 100% water change. *shrugs* I'm a horrible person, I know. You don't need to tell me that. Everyone on here hates me today. *sighs* Anyway, good luck with your fish. I feel your pain.

Edited by Okiimiru, 06 August 2010 - 02:44 PM.

Yes, if it was a disease, then it wasn't the fault of the person taking care of the fish, but I think it's an awfully big coincidence to have a large, fast die-off like that while someone else is watching them. Occam's Razor says the simplest explanation is usually right. I'd keep doing big water changes until you quit losing fish. Water changes almost never hurt anything.

I totally agree of its a disease then out wasn't her fault. This happened last year when my brother on law was left in charge. Next year this ain't happens

I'm not saying that your fish haven't been infected by a disease and those believing you've had an outbreak may be right.

But think about this possiblilty....Each individual's metabolism will vary due to species, age, and environmental factors like food choices etc. Because of this when fish get sick their immune systems will fight a given disease at different rates. So one fish may succum to a disease much faster than another. And since quantities of fish rarely die in mass from a disease especially with such a small window as you have described I have to believe that this is most likely environmental.

The spots you described could be from blood capillaries enlarging/breaking at or near the surface due to a lack of oxygen. The fungus may be a secondary due to the open wounds.

I'd ask myself these questions....

Are or were the fish with spots acting normal before they died? Did they stay near the surface and act like they were trying to get air? Did you notice if their gills were/are red or breathing at a much faster rate? Would they "race" through the tank?

If so:
Did you do water changes just prior to going on vacation? Could nitrates have spiked? I had lived on a farm that had undrinkable well water due to high nitrates spikes from cattle.
Could your caregiver possibly have done anything like added water or used chemicals around the fish? Not to blame but to make a more educated determination...

Personally, I would invest in a test kit and check the water before I spent money on trying to fight a disease that may not be there. Even one of the more expensive kits are a cheap price to pay vs. risking another die off.

If the water tests are all satisfactory:
You stated you brought them in. Were they outside? If they were could a neighbor have been spraying any chemicals around their yard? If not could any chemicals have gotten inside the house though a window? AC? Any crop dusting going on in your area?

One more thing. I don't worry about my fish starving if I'm gone for a week. In the wild they don't have auto feeders or people standing on the bank dropping them food periodically. I read somewhere fish can go up to two weeks without food before any physical harm is done to them. Of course they look look a bit skinnier... but I have never lost an adlt fish due to starvation. It is actually good for them to be able to clean out their systems once in a while. When someone watches my fish I just have them make sure filters/pumps are running properly, there are no leaks and the temperature is within the range I want them.

And one more one more thing. I agree about reducing the amount of water to 10-15%when you do changes especially in an emergency. It can add stress. Just because the water came out of the same tap as the last time the water's makeup could be alot different. I learned that the hard way resulting in the water company informing me in advance when they were going to add chemicals to the city water supply.

Edited by Ken, 07 August 2010 - 01:27 AM.

Personally, I would invest in a test kit and check the water before I spent money on trying to fight a disease that may not be there. Even one of the more expensive kits are a cheap price to pay vs. risking another die off.

I completely agree. Every fish keeper should own a test kit and be able to know their concentration of ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate. And what pH and degrees of general hardness (GH) your water is.

I completely agree. Every fish keeper should own a test kit and be able to know their concentration of ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate. And what pH and degrees of general hardness (GH) your water is.

the fish kill has stopped...no deaths in 2 days.


i have to disagree with "owning a test kit" I have had stable water for over 3 years. since before natives. i never had an issue. i have well seasoned tanks and i know how to establish new tanks instantly. so having a test kit that has a "use by _ _ date" would do no good for me. when i first started out i had one. and i do have a salt water one currently because i am new at that. although i did use live sand, and live rock from the ocean as well as media from my parents tanks. you will find that most of the members here who have been doing this awhile do not have test kits either.

I generally keep an ammonia, a Ph, hardness and a Clorine kit around. I check ammonia at the first sign of a problem and to check our tap water during the summer. I know what our Ph is but I keep a lot of soft water fish so I use along with the hardness kit and reverse osmosis to adjust the Ph and hardness of out tap water. I also use the hardness kit to check the water coming out of the reverse osmosis filter. I only use the clorine kit during the summer because they sometimes use more during the summer. I do regular partial water changes so I don't use nitrite or nitrate kits. I don't even use them on the rare occasions when I have a marine aquarium up. SO yes I think that they are something most aquarists should have and use as needed. In this case it might have given a clue as to what happened to the water if anything.

I have been keeping fish for most of the past 47 years, there have been very few years that I have not had at least 1 aquarium going. I look at them as tools.

You stated that you "have had stable water for over 3 years" but that was while you were taking care of the aquariums, keep in mind someone else was doing it while you were away.