fountain darter on aquabid

Saw this today while browsing Aquabid: http://www.aquabid.c...tive

Thankfully, the seller has not actually collected any specimens. Could one legally collect them from private property?

What's next, San Marcos gambusia?

I have to wonder about the legality of this. This is an endangered species. I don't think it matters if they came from a spring pond on private property, but I'm not sure. He's basically selling the collection of these. If I read this right, after the auction he will go collect 2?

I will admit, sometimes it's a good thing for an endangered species to be caught and bred in captivity. Like the fish from Lake Victoria that only exist in people's aquariums, not any more in their once endemic home.

But I worry about the people who are capturing endangered fish species. That auction, for one thing, sounded pretty sketchy. That person was advertising the fish as "rare", not saying that it should be bred and maintained in captivity because it was in danger of disappearing from the wild. They were selling a rare commodity, not advocating conservation of the species.

Here's a sad story about an endangered fish:
I was visiting the Denver Aquarium in May of 2009 and saw a tank labeled as containing a species of desert pupfish that were extinct in the wild. It claimed to be the only tank where that particular species was kept alive in the entire world. Well, I looked in the tank and saw 50+ swordtails comingling with the nearly extinct pupfish. Swordtails, which are available in nearly every pet store in the United States, taking up the space that could be occupied by this very threatened fish. I told the aquarium authorities about it but haven't been back since, so I don't know if they removed the swordtails from the pupfish tank. And even if they didn't, what moron of a zoo director thinks it's a good idea to keep that fish species in a single aquarium? What if something went wrong with the tank? The species would be gone forever.

So I guess my point is that it's sad that people don't care about endangered fish. Were you the only one who questioned that auction? Was I the only one who questioned the swordtails in the pupfish tank? Someone must have seen them. But the truth is that society doesn't care about endangered animals unless they're cute and fuzzy like a panda bear. The endangered fish, amphibians and reptiles always get the shaft.

Edit: Update: I have filed a report on aquabid asking for them to remove the auction and notify the seller that they are not to collect endangered species from the wild.

Edited by Okiimiru, 18 August 2010 - 02:42 PM.

I will admit, sometimes it's a good thing for an endangered species to be caught and bred in captivity. Like the fish from Lake Victoria that only exist in people's aquariums, not any more in their once endemic home.

It is never a good thing for a person to catch and keep an endangered species. It is illegal for the person capturing and selling this fish and the purchaser will most likely be charged as well.

I also reported this auction.

I'm hoping all this interest popped up after I first posted on this earlier in the morning, but if it was independently found all the better. Notifying Aquabid is really not the best channel, though should be done. The seller should be contacted and the Texas and FWS enforcment authorities shouuld be notified immediately. I have not heard back from the seller regarding their offer.

Edited by ashtonmj, 18 August 2010 - 04:01 PM.

I'm hoping all this interest popped up after I first posted on this earlier in the morning, but if it was independently found all the better. Notifying Aquabid is really not the best channel, though should be done. The seller should be contacted and the Texas and FWS enforcment authorities shouuld be notified immediately. I have not heard back from the seller regarding their offer.

I looked for posts on the subject before posting this topic. It has been reported electronically to the Texas Parks and Wildlife Dept.

I know its not the same thing, but I contacted my local DNR because a guy was going out without permits, catching HUNDREDS of bullhead/madtom fry (would assume some madtoms fry could be found in the swarms) and selling them on aquabid. I have yet to hear back from my DNR contact, but I hope they nailed him along with this guy with the darter.

I think it really sucks that if one of these "rare fish collectors" DOES purchase some, more than likely they won't keep it to breed let alone in its own tank. this is really sad.

Here's a sad story about an endangered fish:
I was visiting the Denver Aquarium in May of 2009 and saw a tank labeled as containing a species of desert pupfish that were extinct in the wild. It claimed to be the only tank where that particular species was kept alive in the entire world. Well, I looked in the tank and saw 50+ swordtails comingling with the nearly extinct pupfish. Swordtails, which are available in nearly every pet store in the United States, taking up the space that could be occupied by this very threatened fish. I told the aquarium authorities about it but haven't been back since, so I don't know if they removed the swordtails from the pupfish tank. And even if they didn't, what moron of a zoo director thinks it's a good idea to keep that fish species in a single aquarium? What if something went wrong with the tank? The species would be gone forever.

So I guess my point is that it's sad that people don't care about endangered fish. Were you the only one who questioned that auction? Was I the only one who questioned the swordtails in the pupfish tank? Someone must have seen them. But the truth is that society doesn't care about endangered animals unless they're cute and fuzzy like a panda bear. The endangered fish, amphibians and reptiles always get the shaft.

Edit: Update: I have filed a report on aquabid asking for them to remove the auction and notify the seller that they are not to collect endangered species from the wild.

Umm... just a quick note.
For every one Pupfish you saw in that tank co mingling with one of the species that made it extinct.. (Yes that is the point of the exhibit, invasive species Bad for endangered fish)There are also three vat fulls in the back room that your not going to see all being very carefully cared for. You questioning it likely wound up as making the day of several aquarists by giving them a very good laugh.

Really we used to keep endangered goodeids with piranhas on exhibit.... It is an Exhibit tank, that is not where the conservation work goes on in Aquariums.

Well, then it must be drama on the part of the aquarium to label it as the "only" tank? Surely it is not, maybe the only facility propagating these fish? Either way, I understand the concern, Okiimiru, but surely this aquarium is not so amateur as to make that mistake.

I also have to agree that sometimes when a fish species becomes endangered, it is a good idea for people(those with proper permits) to collect, and captive breed a species. To be honest many NANFA aquarists now are doing great work, by breeding bluenose shiners(not yet federally listed, give it a few years). Several amateurs may eventually be schooling some pros on the propagation of this candidate species. But of course, you must follow the law, and this idiot on aquabid is clearly not..

Oh, by the way, it is no longer listed on aquabid. Guy could not stand the pressure. Good job guys. If you want to make a complaint here you go. http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/ . Apparently the sellers name is Nick May. College station Texas. Google his name, his my space page comes up.

Edited by Skipjack, 18 August 2010 - 11:10 PM.

Folks-
I have been involved in calling in an aquabid postings. From my experience dealing with the enforcement side of the house, they would prefer that you not contact the seller but rather to simply notify law enforcement(LE) with as much detail as you can supply. Remember these folks have a background in LE and are not biologists, so they welcome any and all information you can supply in regards to the species. You will find, for the most part, LE folks appreciate biologists and their assistance. If you get as tweaked as me reading these ads, it is hard to fight the temptation to write a torrent email to these Aquabid sellers. But the thought is LE can set up a "buy" and nab the person. In my case this wasn't a guy that made a mistake, it was a repeat offender attempting to make money selling our imperiled natural resources. That sickens me.

Also another issue that can come into play with Aquabid is the Lacey Act. If a person collects/sells a species that is in violation of their State's laws and then ships it/transports it across State lines, they violate the Lacey Act and the Feds get involved. So the offender gets the two-for-one deal, a ticket from the state and a ticket from the Feds. In most cases, both the buyer and seller would get their own pair of tickets.
-Scott

Umm... just a quick note.
For every one Pupfish you saw in that tank co mingling with one of the species that made it extinct.. (Yes that is the point of the exhibit, invasive species Bad for endangered fish)There are also three vat fulls in the back room that your not going to see all being very carefully cared for. You questioning it likely wound up as making the day of several aquarists by giving them a very good laugh.

Really we used to keep endangered goodeids with piranhas on exhibit.... It is an Exhibit tank, that is not where the conservation work goes on in Aquariums.

What a responsible way to display endangered fish, oops sorry extinct in the wild fish and deceive the public, but I guess you think it's ok and the person that mentioned the Pupfish must be an idiot for believing it was the only tank of them left in existance. Of course they can never be returned to the wild since they have mutated. I am glad to hear that a public aquarium is keeping and displaying them so responsibly. I'm also glad that one of the "professionals" here thinks it's ok. My opinion, sorry it's not responsible neither are the Piranhas and goodieds. It probably didn't work out too well did it?

Don't bother to answer brooklamprey, I don't care.

Edited by Lotsapetsgarfhts, 19 August 2010 - 10:45 AM.

It is never a good thing for a person to catch and keep an endangered species. It is illegal for the person capturing and selling this fish and the purchaser will most likely be charged as well.

Never say never. Since the 1950's, nearly half of all of the fish species in Lake Victoria, endemic creatures found nowhere else, have gone extinct. The individuals of those species that still exist are in people's home aquariums. If people hadn't caught and bred the cichlids in Lake Victoria before the Nile Perch was introduced and wiped them all out, then they wouldn't exist now. Read the "Biology and Ecology" section here: http://en.wikipedia....i/Lake_Victoria

I was trying to offset my "No no, don't do that" rest of my post by admitting in what circumstances catching and breeding an endangered species might be a good idea. You have to admit that catching those cichlids from Lake Victoria, and other catches for the purpose of conservation, might be a good idea. Of course, this seller on aquabid was by no means endorsing conservation of the species.
*shrugs* I wasn't trying to get anybody upset, just to offset the general negative tone of my "don't catch them" post with a "don't catch them unless you're going to breed and preserve them".

Edited by Okiimiru, 19 August 2010 - 10:59 AM.

For every one Pupfish you saw in that tank co mingling with one of the species that made it extinct.. (Yes that is the point of the exhibit, invasive species Bad for endangered fish)There are also three vat fulls in the back room that your not going to see all being very carefully cared for. You questioning it likely wound up as making the day of several aquarists by giving them a very good laugh.

Actually, every one of the three aquarium workers I talked to that day responded to the swordtail presence by saying, "Really? I didn't know those were in there."
It was news to them that there were swordtails in the pupfish tank.

And swordtails aren't an invasive species in New Mexico. Desert pupfish live in little salt pools in the desert, hundreds of miles from the nearest swordtail. The reason they went extinct in the wild is that humans changed the ground water flow patterns and the desert pupfish's territories disappeared.

Edited by Okiimiru, 19 August 2010 - 11:45 AM.

And swordtails aren't an invasive species in New Mexico. Desert pupfish live in little salt pools in the desert, hundreds of miles from the nearest swordtail. The reason they went extinct in the wild is that humans changed the ground water flow patterns and the desert pupfish's territories disappeared.

Overpumping of spring water is certainly a problem in the desert southwest, and it took a Supreme Court decision to stop the pumping of aquifer water that was threatening the Devil's Hole pupfish pool. But in many of these pools and streams introduced bass, gambusia, guppies, swordtails and others depress the populations of native endemics by both predation and interference with reproduction (both courtship behaviors, and eating eggs and fry). This negatively affects both the various Cyprinodon species and Rhinichthys and other daces. You can visit springs all over the arid West and find aquarium dumps, never a happy sign. Also, only a few of the stream systems with pupfish populations are saline, notably in Death Valley.

Oki - I think what Drew meant was that a private collector without a permit should never collect protected species. Those Lake Victoria cichlids that were wiped out by Nile Perch (and other factors) were either exported for commercial trade (presumably legal) or collected by public aquarium staff or conservation agencies for captive breeding (again, presumably legal). Yes most folks agree it's a good thing they are now in captive culture. Now, if a government (federal, state, whatever) declares a fish endangered and it's pretty clearly doomed in the wild, but the responsible agency WON'T protect the habitat or propagate the fish, nor issue anybody else a permit to do so, then .... ????

Never say never. Since the 1950's, nearly half of all of the fish species in Lake Victoria, endemic creatures found nowhere else, have gone extinct. The individuals of those species that still exist are in people's home aquariums. If people hadn't caught and bred the cichlids in Lake Victoria before the Nile Perch was introduced and wiped them all out, then they wouldn't exist now.

Of course they can never be returned to the wild since they have mutated.

You are confusing genotype with phenotype. Anyway, if they were extinct in the wild what difference would it make?

Overpumping of spring water is certainly a problem in the desert southwest, and it took a Supreme Court decision to stop the pumping of aquifer water that was threatening the Devil's Hole pupfish pool. But in many of these pools and streams introduced bass, gambusia, guppies, swordtails and others depress the populations of native endemics by both predation and interference with reproduction (both courtship behaviors, and eating eggs and fry). This negatively affects both the various Cyprinodon species and Rhinichthys and other daces. You can visit springs all over the arid West and find aquarium dumps, never a happy sign. Also, only a few of the stream systems with pupfish populations are saline, notably in Death Valley.

Huh. I didn't know that. Thank you

Huh. I didn't know that. Thank you

Well good now we are getting someplace....