Minnow ID

This is a minnow I dipnetted (and released) while trout fishing in November in the Chattooga River on the South Carolina/ Georgia border. I caught a lot of them hanging out with some Notropis spectrunculus. Its a juvenile about 3.5 cm long. My best guess is a Notropis rubricroceus (Saffron Shiner). Any ideas?

The double caudal spot is kinda odd, makes it not look lik ea rubricroceus to me. The body doesn't appear as broad to me in height and the snout a little too rounded. Are they even down in that area? I didn't think they extended that far south and that the Little T drinage into NC was the furthest south they got and maybe just knicked the SC border. I absolutely love spructunculus since you mentioned them though. I've only seen two, in the Hiwassee River, caught one, and he escaped by viewing baggy. Beautiful fish, wish they were closer or not in trout streams in TN.

The double caudal spot is kinda odd, makes it not look lik ea rubricroceus to me. The body doesn't appear as broad to me in height and the snout a little too rounded. Are they even down in that area? I didn't think they extended that far south and that the Little T drinage into NC was the furthest south they got and maybe just knicked the SC border. I absolutely love spructunculus since you mentioned them though. I've only seen two, in the Hiwassee River, caught one, and he escaped by viewing baggy. Beautiful fish, wish they were closer or not in trout streams in TN.

Yeah, it's not a saffron shiner for sure. Maybe it's a subadult male mirror shiner? The body proportions are right.

If this spructunculus is the saffron shiner. I frequent the hiawassee at times. What is the preffered habitat. Speaking to the gentleman that made the reply that he likes them. I am not a shiner lover but if you can give me some hints on where to find them I need little or no excuse to go out fish hunting. So give me a PM if you don't mind. That goes for the original poster of this thread. If you guys want some and I can catch some I have been known to be a good guy at times. Let me know if I can help. I would love to get out to the Hiawasie I haven't been there in a while. I know I can catch some really gross hellbenders if you want one of those. Like taking candy from a baby. I know it is not a fish but very interesting nontheless. But about the shinners I do know they need lots of oxygen, at least in my limmited experience with them so I do not know how well they would ship.

Yeah I'm definately agreeing with Bruce now that someone else chimed in, its not a saffron shiner.

Well I'm not 100% sure about this, but pretty sure that TN is one of number of states where you cannot seine in designated trout streams. The Hiwassee has multiple designations too and I'm not sure where they exactly stop, if its Patty Rd. bridge or US Highway 411. I saw the mirror shiners while doing my research, snorkeling about 2 rive miles upstream of the Patty Rd ramp. They were along the margins of the stream in slower water over sand and gravel near woody debris. Heck technically the rules of the TWRA ramp say no wading at the ramp, and the regs for the Hiwassee above 411 (Cherokee Forest boundary) stipulate you must have a life jacket on when wading and there is no collection there anyways.

The double caudal spot is kinda odd, makes it not look lik ea rubricroceus to me. The body doesn't appear as broad to me in height and the snout a little too rounded. Are they even down in that area? I didn't think they extended that far south and that the Little T drinage into NC was the furthest south they got and maybe just knicked the SC border. I absolutely love spructunculus since you mentioned them though. I've only seen two, in the Hiwassee River, caught one, and he escaped by viewing baggy. Beautiful fish, wish they were closer or not in trout streams in TN.

It actually does not have a double caudal spot, there is a parasite on the peduncle. And no, saffron shiners are not known from South Carolina, but do supposedly occur further upstream in North Carolina portions of the Chattooga drainage. My reasons for thinking saffron shiner are the black edging on the scales below the lateral line, and the reddish fins. I could add a picture of what I was calling a mirror shiner if it would help (slightly blurry). Thanks for the replies.

I'm pretty sure that's a Tennessee shiner, N. leuciodus. For one thing, look at the coloration in the anal fin. The isolated, rectangular basicaudal spot is telltale. If you look closely, the "cluster" just up the lateral line are not in fact chromatophores... They're either parasites or pieces of tiny gravel. There's another such spot further up, just above the insertion of the anal fin.

Todd

I'm pretty sure that's a Tennessee shiner, N. leuciodus. For one thing, look at the coloration in the anal fin. The isolated, rectangular basicaudal spot is telltale. If you look closely, the "cluster" just up the lateral line are not in fact chromatophores... They're either parasites or pieces of tiny gravel. There's another such spot further up, just above the insertion of the anal fin.

Todd

Todd, you win. I looked up one of Steven Ellis' photos of Tennessees and it's pretty close to the photo above. The basicaudal spot is a good diagnostic. I've usually only seen them in the upper Paint Rock system in breeding colors when they're unmistakable.

I've usually only seen them in the upper Paint Rock system in breeding colors when they're unmistakable.

Yeah, that's the easy time, which I have yet to see. I've always been down there in March and April, so I've had to rely on these more fine tuned diagnostics

Todd

I'm pretty sure that's a Tennessee shiner, N. leuciodus. For one thing, look at the coloration in the anal fin. The isolated, rectangular basicaudal spot is telltale. If you look closely, the "cluster" just up the lateral line are not in fact chromatophores... They're either parasites or pieces of tiny gravel. There's another such spot further up, just above the insertion of the anal fin.

Todd

I'm starting to believe you on it being a Tennessee. The body shape and mouth position fit Tennessee better, its the dark-edged scales below the lateral that had me going the other way on it. Fishes of Virginia states that on pigmentation under the lateral line the Tennessee is "almost always immaculate, sometimes with scattered slight pigmentation vs. well pigmented, scales darkly margined 1-3 scale rows below the lateral line in the saffron". Oh well, its a new fish for me either way. Tennessee it is I guess.

Thanks for the input,
Marcus

I sent the picture out to an expert on freshwater fishes in the Carolinas, and he ID this fish as a juvenile Yellowfin Shiner Notropis lutipinnis, and I think he may be right. Any other opinions out there?

I could see that being true, I have seen yellowfin shiners several times at various sizes and I can't see any reason why it would not be a yellowfin shiner. Thats just at a quick glance though I would want to do some scale/fin ray counts to be sure.

Any other opinions out there?

Here's where I should have done my homework... I thought the Chattooga went into the Hiwassee, and that was a mistake on my part. I would say go with the ID from your Carolina expert (which I am certainly not! ).

I really need to get that Fishes of the Middle Savannah Drainage book on my gift list. I really wish they'd just done the whole thing, actually. But I'll just keep piecing it all together...

Todd

I sent the picture out to an expert on freshwater fishes in the Carolinas, and he ID this fish as a juvenile Yellowfin Shiner Notropis lutipinnis, and I think he may be right. Any other opinions out there?

I dunno, I still like leuciodus because of the basicaudal spot pattern. It's admittedly on the range edge. I was hoping to find some tennessees last weekend on a trip to the upper Paint Rock system here in 'bama but we didn't find any; we were focusing our efforts on riffles for telescope shiners, and near as I can tell the only Notropis we found were telescopes in their preferred niche.

I dunno, I still like leuciodus because of the basicaudal spot pattern. It's admittedly on the range edge. I was hoping to find some tennessees last weekend on a trip to the upper Paint Rock system here in 'bama but we didn't find any; we were focusing our efforts on riffles for telescope shiners, and near as I can tell the only Notropis we found were telescopes in their preferred niche.

I don't think the basicaudal spot is right for leuciodus. The TN's I have seen have a more elongate horizontally oriented rectangular caudal spot. Don't let the fins fool you either. Yellowfin shiners in the Saluda and Savannah river drainages up in this area have very red fins year round. They are a much diffferent looking fish from the yellowfins you find downsteam in the same drainages. Also, keep in mind that lutipinnis is a species in flux. There will likely be a minimum of 3 species in the lutipinnis/chlorocephalus complex shortly, and in my opinion there could be as many as 5.

I took the liberty of copying and posting Noel Burkhead's yellowfin shiner picture, below. This one is a male in breeding condition, maybe from a different species than the fish in question here. I'm still confused about whether the fish in the picture above is a tennessee or a "yellowfin". The Burkhead fish has a more pointed snout, near as I can tell, but the basicaudal area is similar.

 YellowFinShiner.jpg   27.25KB   0 downloads

Isn't the the elongation of snout a secondary sexual characteristic though in Hydrophlox?

I'd totally buy that it was leuciodus if it were a TN River trib... But I just haven't seen enough of the Atlantic Slope stuff to make any kind of a call there.

Todd

Isn't the the elongation of snout a secondary sexual characteristic though in Hydrophlox?

I'd totally buy that it was leuciodus if it were a TN River trib... But I just haven't seen enough of the Atlantic Slope stuff to make any kind of a call there.

Todd

I'm honestly not sure about the secondary sexual characteristic, it could well be. I think I'm going agnostic about any Notropis species ID's from snapshots, maybe I'm no fun(!).

here's a few more yellowfin shiner pics...






The first three are from the headwaters of the Hudson River (broad river drainage) and the last is from the Little Tennessee River all in northern GA.

I think I'm going agnostic about any Notropis species ID's from snapshots

I think there's a relative amount of wisdom in that

I was thinking also we could put a post-ie on the ID main that gives some helpful hints for identification. Something like

Please Provide:

1) Waterbody - The more information the better. For example "Beaver Creek" tells relatively little. However, by naming it's decent to a major water body, such as "Beaver Creek - Maumee River - Lake Erie" we have a lot more information to work with.

2) Features - The more detailed photography you can provide, the better an identification. Important detail areas are lateral line scales, fins showing rays, head and tail.

And then maybe 3) some other things like "Other species caught with it" etc etc.

I dunno, what do you think?

Todd