I am in charge of setting up a tank to exhibit native fish at a small nature center in New Mexico. First off, this is being done with the knowledge of local game and fish officials. And I've been keeping aquariums for 25 years and give talks to other people about water quality and "aquarium ecology", so I'm good with those issues. But this is my first experience with native fish and with an aquarium of this size.
We have a donated 180-gallon tank with a suitably large canister filter. The gravel was kept wet from the previous tank setup, and so far we've had no cycling-related problems. The only misgiving I have is the temperature: it's been 72-75F and I have no way to bring it down. We can't afford a chiller.
The tank was stocked on September 16 with 3 chubs, 3 suckers, and 4 dace. All of them acclimated well and within a week or so were eating sinking carnivore pellets and algae wafers.
Lesson #1: dace can jump out of small spaces. The tank was covered, but there was a triangular gap around the filter uptake tube. Two of the dace managed to jump out. The gap is now covered.
Lesson #2: gas bubble disease. Since they came from a stream environment, I upgraded to a stronger air pump and bubble bar about a week after getting the fish. Around Sept 28, I discovered that 4 of the fish (3 chubs and 1 dace) had obvious bubbles embedded in their skin. Prior to this, these same fish had been observed actively swimming in the stream of bubbles. As of today, the affected fish have died. The remaining fish (3 suckers and 1 dace) have no apparent bubbles. As soon as I saw the problem, I reduced the aeration and moved the bubble bar up near the top of the tank so the fish cannot swim in the bubbles.
I'm really mystified by the gas bubble problem. I don't think there could have been any temperature fluctuations significant enough to supersaturate the gas due to temperature change. (The tank is indoors and we've had no big changes in the weather during this time. And a tank this size doesn't change temperature rapidly.) The only explanation is either that the aeration was excessive, or the behavior of the fish caused them to supersaturate their bodies with gas.
Now the questions...
Any general advice that might help me avert additional problems that haven't occurred to me? Most of my background is with aquatic amphibians, so coping with fish disease is new for me.
Are suckers likely to do OK in captivity? I can't find any information on this forum that seems encouraging. People have tried them but they haven't lived very long. I believe that the chubs and dace should do OK if I have the conditions right.
Are there any specifics about water quality that I might not know? Do people use aquarium salt, as is sometimes recommended for tropical fish? Should I be trying to match the pH or other parameters of the stream water? (Our tap water is somewhat harder and more alkaline.)
I have some photos, but evidently I need to have them hosted somewhere first. I will work on that.
native fish at nature center in NM
Started by
Guest_Daphnia_*
, Oct 03 2010 07:24 PM
17 replies to this topic
#2
Guest_Daphnia_*
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Posted 06 October 2010 - 09:58 AM
Here is a photo of the tank. Since the photo, I've moved the bubble bar up near the surface to prevent the fish from swimming directly in the bubbles, which seems to have been associated with the ones who got bubbles in their skin.
The photo of the sucker was taken a couple of days after arrival; they now have lost a lot of the orange color, so I'm concerned that they aren't doing as well as I would like.
These are photos of the sick fish before they died. These look like white dots in the photos, but in real life they were clearly air bubbles - silvery, not white.
The photo of the sucker was taken a couple of days after arrival; they now have lost a lot of the orange color, so I'm concerned that they aren't doing as well as I would like.
These are photos of the sick fish before they died. These look like white dots in the photos, but in real life they were clearly air bubbles - silvery, not white.
#3
Guest_Uland_*
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Posted 06 October 2010 - 10:59 AM
I understand that oxygen saturation in fish is not only rare but difficult to accomplish. I suspect you have a slime coat issue of sorts, perhaps even ich.
Needless to say, proper diagnosis prior to treatment is key. While this forum is a great resource, you might want to also try some of the better tropical forums for proper diagnosis before you treat.
Needless to say, proper diagnosis prior to treatment is key. While this forum is a great resource, you might want to also try some of the better tropical forums for proper diagnosis before you treat.
#4
littlen
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Posted 06 October 2010 - 12:47 PM
Daphnia,
With only looking at your pics, I would also agree with Uland on an initial diagnosis. It does appear to be a (significant) ich outbreak. I don't think that bubbles attaching to excess mucus on the body would be a cause of death. I've seen a lot of fish get small bubbles attached to their slime coats with no adverse reactions. This usually clears up in a few hours. Salt can help with this as well. Most 'bubble bars'/air stones can't produce the fine micro-bubbles that cause supersaturation and result in death. (I've only experienced this happening when a strainer basket lid isn't tightened down all the way on an inline pump).
A year ago I was collecting in TN and brought back a bunch of dace that ended up breaking with ich and looking much like the fish in your pics. All fish, and wild animals for that matter, are carriers of one pathogen/parasite or another. Once we stress them by means of capture and put them into a captive environment they usually break. Salt can help if ich is indeed the culprit, but a proper diagnosis is required.
As far as the fish spending a good amount of time in the bubble bar when it was lower in the tank--I would suspect that they were playing there as there was the greatest amount of water movement. Most stream going fish enjoy and usually require strong water current. It doesn't appear (from your photos) that you have any submersible pumps. Try adding a few to really turn things up and see if your fish don't spend more time in front of them. Dace really seem to enjoy messing around right near the outflow of pumps. Perhaps your jumpers were doing just that near the return on your canister filter and took flight where it hooked over the frame of the tank.
Furthermore, I don't think temps. in the mid 70's will do harm to your fish. I don't know the temp swings in NM where you collected them but I have to imagine that summer temps in the wild get up in this range. On the other hand, temperature swings are one of the primary factors that 'color up' or 'dull down' a fish's color. The disappearance of the orange stripe is normal and nothing you should be overly concerned about.
Please keep us posted with your progess! Great tank by the way.
With only looking at your pics, I would also agree with Uland on an initial diagnosis. It does appear to be a (significant) ich outbreak. I don't think that bubbles attaching to excess mucus on the body would be a cause of death. I've seen a lot of fish get small bubbles attached to their slime coats with no adverse reactions. This usually clears up in a few hours. Salt can help with this as well. Most 'bubble bars'/air stones can't produce the fine micro-bubbles that cause supersaturation and result in death. (I've only experienced this happening when a strainer basket lid isn't tightened down all the way on an inline pump).
A year ago I was collecting in TN and brought back a bunch of dace that ended up breaking with ich and looking much like the fish in your pics. All fish, and wild animals for that matter, are carriers of one pathogen/parasite or another. Once we stress them by means of capture and put them into a captive environment they usually break. Salt can help if ich is indeed the culprit, but a proper diagnosis is required.
As far as the fish spending a good amount of time in the bubble bar when it was lower in the tank--I would suspect that they were playing there as there was the greatest amount of water movement. Most stream going fish enjoy and usually require strong water current. It doesn't appear (from your photos) that you have any submersible pumps. Try adding a few to really turn things up and see if your fish don't spend more time in front of them. Dace really seem to enjoy messing around right near the outflow of pumps. Perhaps your jumpers were doing just that near the return on your canister filter and took flight where it hooked over the frame of the tank.
Furthermore, I don't think temps. in the mid 70's will do harm to your fish. I don't know the temp swings in NM where you collected them but I have to imagine that summer temps in the wild get up in this range. On the other hand, temperature swings are one of the primary factors that 'color up' or 'dull down' a fish's color. The disappearance of the orange stripe is normal and nothing you should be overly concerned about.
Please keep us posted with your progess! Great tank by the way.
Nick L.
#5
Guest_Daphnia_*
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Posted 06 October 2010 - 06:00 PM
I know it looks like ich in the photos. But please believe me... these were air bubbles. They were not in the slime coat, they were embedded inside the tissue of the skin and fins. And the spots appeared all at once, simultaneously on all of the chubs and longnose dace. What I've read jives with what you've said - that it's impossible to oversaturate air in the water using a bubbler. But I've also read that bubbles embedded in the fish can be caused by swim bladder problems (this page, near the bottom). So I wonder if swimming directly in bubbles could have caused swim bladder problems? Also, the suckers and speckled dace are completely unaffected, not a single spot on them. If it were ich or some other parasite, could they be completely immune?
Thank you for the suggestion about adding a pump in the water. I have some spare powerheads. And it's good to know that the fading of the red color isn't a concern. Here's a picture I took today.
Thank you for the suggestion about adding a pump in the water. I have some spare powerheads. And it's good to know that the fading of the red color isn't a concern. Here's a picture I took today.
#6
Guest_Irate Mormon_*
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Posted 06 October 2010 - 11:52 PM
"Gas Bubble Disease"? From an airstone?? I think not.
#7
Guest_AussiePeter_*
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Posted 07 October 2010 - 08:39 AM
I too find it a bit hard to believe they are just bubbles. One thing in your favor though is that the dace and suckers often live in very fast water with lots of bubbles. But I've never heard of anyone causing bubbles on a fish from an airstone in 30 years of keeping fish! Sometimes it is possible to get ich on some fish and not others. It could also be that they also have ich, but just at a much lower rate of infection that is harder to see.
Another point to keep in mind, anytime you bring in new fish from the wild you should quarantine them. In my experience with fishes from Arizona and Oklahoma that during the warmer months everything had ich and anchor worms. I always just treated them automatically for both. Whenever I didn't one (ich) or both problems would surface soon enough.
You may also be in luck with your suckers too as they are from the mountain sucker lineage (subgenus Pantosteus) and I have seen them kept for years in captivity at BYU and doing very well. Most other suckers do very poorly. Mountain suckers like to have lots and lots of larger hard substrate to scrape and pick at.
You should also feel kind of privileged too as no one can legally collect and keep any of these species (fish in the west in general), which partly adds to our lack of knowledge about them in captivity.
Cheers
Peter
Another point to keep in mind, anytime you bring in new fish from the wild you should quarantine them. In my experience with fishes from Arizona and Oklahoma that during the warmer months everything had ich and anchor worms. I always just treated them automatically for both. Whenever I didn't one (ich) or both problems would surface soon enough.
You may also be in luck with your suckers too as they are from the mountain sucker lineage (subgenus Pantosteus) and I have seen them kept for years in captivity at BYU and doing very well. Most other suckers do very poorly. Mountain suckers like to have lots and lots of larger hard substrate to scrape and pick at.
You should also feel kind of privileged too as no one can legally collect and keep any of these species (fish in the west in general), which partly adds to our lack of knowledge about them in captivity.
Cheers
Peter
#8
Guest_nativeplanter_*
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Posted 07 October 2010 - 11:10 AM
Is it not velvet disease?
#9
littlen
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Posted 07 October 2010 - 11:52 AM
I've heard of and experience issues with the swim bladder, but none that manifested itself into the skin. You would usually and immediately see buoyancy issues. Did you witness any strange swimming behavior?
Nick L.
#10
Guest_Daphnia_*
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Posted 07 October 2010 - 11:14 PM
They swam fairly normally when sick, just lethargic.
Does anyone have any suggestions regarding introducing additional fish in the future? If this was something infectious, it seems like the big tank is more likely to be "contagious" than the new fish would be.
Does anyone have any suggestions regarding introducing additional fish in the future? If this was something infectious, it seems like the big tank is more likely to be "contagious" than the new fish would be.
#11
littlen
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Posted 08 October 2010 - 07:02 AM
I'm not quite sure what you mean by, "If this was something infectious, it seems like the big tank is more likely to be "contagious" than the new fish would be." If you are worried about your tank infecting potential additions then by no means add any more fish. If it was a supersaturation issue (which none of us seem to think it was) then it is obvioulsy resolved as you have had no more deaths--I assume. Supersaturation would have likely killed every fish. As a general rule of thumb, new fish are always the source of infection. Both directly or indirectly.
For example, new introductions could be hosts to something that they are not expressing while your current fish are not immune to this same pathogen which causes them to break. Additionally, let's say that ich was the cause of your die-off....your current fish/tank still has it. New introductions could stress your current animals (maybe by picking on them, or chasing them around constantly) and as we all know, stress can cause a fish to break.
For example, new introductions could be hosts to something that they are not expressing while your current fish are not immune to this same pathogen which causes them to break. Additionally, let's say that ich was the cause of your die-off....your current fish/tank still has it. New introductions could stress your current animals (maybe by picking on them, or chasing them around constantly) and as we all know, stress can cause a fish to break.
Nick L.
#12
Guest_BLChristie_*
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Posted 13 October 2010 - 06:43 PM
Looking at the photos it most certainly looks like an Ichthyophthirius outbreak than anything else - there are two things that would be very prevalent if you had supersaturated the water- exopthalmia (i.e. "popeye") and visible gas bubbles in the fins (big, unmistakable gas bubbles between the spines and soft rays). When water is super-saturated the eyes are almost always the first indicator in bony fishes- it really doesn't take much to get the eyes out of their sockets, your fishes would start to present with exopthalmia at relatively low levels, say 105-120% saturation, while it would take much more to kill them (and when it did they would all be wiped out pretty quick). You would also see visible gas bubbles floating around in the vitreous humour of the eyes once they were out of the sockets.
If you ever do suspect supersaturation to be a cause of death there is a very simple diagnostic if you have a freshly dead specimen, just clip a gill arch off and look at it under a scope or magnifying glass - you should see long bubbles in the blood vessels...for what its worth
If you ever do suspect supersaturation to be a cause of death there is a very simple diagnostic if you have a freshly dead specimen, just clip a gill arch off and look at it under a scope or magnifying glass - you should see long bubbles in the blood vessels...for what its worth
#13
Guest_CaptainCaveman_*
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Posted 17 December 2010 - 04:09 AM
I would agree from the pictures it appears to be an ich outbreak. For future fish, if there is a way to set up a quarantine tank to hold them for a week or so to make treatment easier. For the display tank, try raising the temperature of the tank around 85f and add aquarium salt (not marine salt or table salt). The increased temperature will speed up the life cycle of the ich parasite, and the salt will do the actual killing. At 85f ich can't reproduce even though the temperature speeds the organism to it's mature form.
#14
Guest_az9_*
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Posted 24 December 2010 - 11:47 PM
I would agree from the pictures it appears to be an ich outbreak. For future fish, if there is a way to set up a quarantine tank to hold them for a week or so to make treatment easier. For the display tank, try raising the temperature of the tank around 85f and add aquarium salt (not marine salt or table salt). The increased temperature will speed up the life cycle of the ich parasite, and the salt will do the actual killing. At 85f ich can't reproduce even though the temperature speeds the organism to it's mature form.
For what it's worth i always dip new additions to my recirculating systems in saltwater strength water (3 percent or 30 ppt) before adding them to the actual tank. I dip them until they turn on their sides. Never had any problem with any of my fish so far which have included bluegills and yellow perch. I also keep my system at 0.2 percent (2 ppt) salinity.
#15
Guest_Daphnia_*
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Posted 25 January 2011 - 10:01 PM
Update. Yes, you all were right of course, it was ich. I feel stupid for losing the first group of chubs and dace. The original suckers never had any symptoms and are still alive and well. After getting new chubs and dace, we had a second outbreak, which was treated successfully with malachite green. An initial attempt at treatment using chelated copper failed, but the malachite worked like a charm. All the fish did fine during treatment and have been doing amazingly well for 2+ months now. 
Now that we have a good healthy group, we have no plans to add any more fish, but if the time comes, I will pretreat and quarantine. Treating a huge tank is not fun! Due to the size of the suckers, and lack of another large tank, treating the whole tank seems to have been the best option.
Now that we have a good healthy group, we have no plans to add any more fish, but if the time comes, I will pretreat and quarantine. Treating a huge tank is not fun! Due to the size of the suckers, and lack of another large tank, treating the whole tank seems to have been the best option.
#16
Guest_AOmonsta_*
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Posted 25 January 2011 - 10:53 PM
What type of canister you have? You need more than a single canister for a 180, even if your using an fx5. I would suggest a sump or an AC110.
#17
Guest_Daphnia_*
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Posted 07 February 2011 - 11:08 PM
What type of canister you have? You need more than a single canister for a 180, even if your using an fx5. I would suggest a sump or an AC110.
We have an Eheim 2250 canister. Water parameters are tested regularly - never any detectable ammonia or nitrite. What would be the indicators that we need more filtration on the tank? I appreciate any pointers, this is my first experience with a huge tank.
#18
littlen
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Posted 08 February 2011 - 08:52 AM
I personally wouldn't wait until I noticed something (such as fish getting sick, poor water parameters, cloudy water, etc) before adding more filtration. You should have quite a bit more filtration than the amount of waste your fish/tank produces. You are at that level now as you stated your test results are within an acceptable range. But you have the potential to add quite a few fish to a 180 gallon tank. Things might go smoothly for a while, but it takes one stress related event to send the whole tank into an unavoidable crash. A sump would be ideal for such a large system--and more practical too.
Good luck.
Good luck.
Nick L.
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