Help needed in Identifying Erimyzon species

Need help identifying this fish, for sure its and Erimyzon but we have been unable to identify it down to species because the keys are conflicting. The adults ranged from 340-410mm and we're leaning toward lake chubsucker but until we get DNA analysis done we think it's a lake chubsucker.
Fish was caught in NY in a lake with no outlets or inlets, on the verge of the susquahana and ontario drainages.

Edited by efbauer21, 07 November 2010 - 05:25 PM.

Need help identifying this fish, for sure its and Erimyzon but we have been unable to identify it down to species because the keys are conflicting. The adults ranged from 340-410mm and we're leaning toward lake chubsucker but until we get DNA analysis done we think it's a lake chubsucker.
Fish was caught in NY in a lake with no outlets or inlets, on the verge of the susquahana and ontario drainages.

Just an FYI, we catch creek chubsuckers in Chesapeake Bay drainage coastal ponds THAT big.

Either way that is one heck of nice fish. From my experience the creek chubsuckers have a significantly more subterminal mouth and the Lake Chubsuckers have a nearly terminal mouth. One thing to keep in mind is that fish from the North East seem to be rather different than those in the midwest which is what my photos are mostly from. I examined some fish that came from an area that supposedly only had creek chubsucker but these fish just did not look like the ones here in Ohio, the mouth seemed rather intermediate. Here are a few photos I have...

 Female Creek Chubsucker by BZ.JPG   165.71KB   0 downloads
Female Creek Chubsucker from western Ohio

 Male Creek Chubsucker by BZ.JPG   148.76KB   0 downloads
Male Creek Chubsucker from western Ohio

 Male Creek Chubsucker1 by BZ.jpg   184.43KB   0 downloads
Another male Creek Chubsucker also western Ohio in an aquarium

 jv creek chubsucker4 un-named trib to Springville Marsh Outlet 3_18_06 by BZ.jpg   83.11KB   0 downloads
 jv creek chubsucker1 un-named trib to Springville Marsh Outlet 3_18_06 by BZ.jpg   55.98KB   0 downloads
Juvenile Creek Chubsuckers from western Ohio

[  Female Lake Chubsucker by BZ.JPG   137.68KB   0 downloads
Captive raised female Lake Chubsucker parrents from Kankakee River in IN

 Female Lake Chubsucker2 from Wolf Creek (Kankakee River) IN 07 01 07 by BZ.jpg   85.28KB   0 downloads
Field photo of female Lake Chubsucker showing how the mouth opens very terminally also from the Kankakee in IN

 JV Lake Chubsucker by BZ.JPG   144.77KB   0 downloads
Captive raised juvenile Lake Chubsucker parents from the Kankakee in IN

 Lake Chubsucker1 Trib to Alafia River FL 03OCT09 by BZ.jpg   137.07KB   0 downloads
Fairly large male Lake Chubsucker caught durring the FL NANFA convention from the Alafia River drainage in FL


If I made a guess on past experience you have an eastern creek chubsucker based on the rather intermeadiate appearance of the mouth and just my gut fealing after seeing the fish I looked at from the NE coast.

Either way that is one heck of nice fish. From my experience the creek chubsuckers have a significantly more subterminal mouth and the Lake Chubsuckers have a nearly terminal mouth. One thing to keep in mind is that fish from the North East seem to be rather different than those in the midwest which is what my photos are mostly from. I examined some fish that came from an area that supposedly only had creek chubsucker but these fish just did not look like the ones here in Ohio, the mouth seemed rather intermediate. Here are a few photos I have...

 Female Creek Chubsucker by BZ.JPG   165.71KB   0 downloads
Female Creek Chubsucker from western Ohio

 Male Creek Chubsucker by BZ.JPG   148.76KB   0 downloads
Male Creek Chubsucker from western Ohio

 Male Creek Chubsucker1 by BZ.jpg   184.43KB   0 downloads
Another male Creek Chubsucker also western Ohio in an aquarium

 jv creek chubsucker4 un-named trib to Springville Marsh Outlet 3_18_06 by BZ.jpg   83.11KB   0 downloads
 jv creek chubsucker1 un-named trib to Springville Marsh Outlet 3_18_06 by BZ.jpg   55.98KB   0 downloads
Juvenile Creek Chubsuckers from western Ohio

[  Female Lake Chubsucker by BZ.JPG   137.68KB   0 downloads
Captive raised female Lake Chubsucker parrents from Kankakee River in IN

 Female Lake Chubsucker2 from Wolf Creek (Kankakee River) IN 07 01 07 by BZ.jpg   85.28KB   0 downloads
Field photo of female Lake Chubsucker showing how the mouth opens very terminally also from the Kankakee in IN

 JV Lake Chubsucker by BZ.JPG   144.77KB   0 downloads
Captive raised juvenile Lake Chubsucker parents from the Kankakee in IN

 Lake Chubsucker1 Trib to Alafia River FL 03OCT09 by BZ.jpg   137.07KB   0 downloads
Fairly large male Lake Chubsucker caught durring the FL NANFA convention from the Alafia River drainage in FL


If I made a guess on past experience you have an eastern creek chubsucker based on the rather intermeadiate appearance of the mouth and just my gut fealing after seeing the fish I looked at from the NE coast.

Thanks Brian,

We've been hoping that it was a Lake Chubsucker since those are listed as threatened in NYS. We do have a DEC report from that lake that listed Erimyzon sucetta as present in the lake. It also appears to be much much larger than any listed creek chubsucker record for NY. If it is a Lake Chubsucker it may be the only population in the state since it hasnt been caught since that last DEC report, it could potentially be something completely different since this lake is a kettle lake with no inlet or outlets and therefore has been isolated since the last glacier retreated from the area, its also unlikely to be an introduction I think because I dont think someone would have stocked it or used it as bait. Guess genetics is really the only good way to tell, but thanks for the pictures and your opinion, just been trying to get second and third opinions.

Edited by efbauer21, 15 November 2010 - 01:14 PM.

Thanks Brian,

We've been hoping that it was a Lake Chubsucker since those are listed as threatened in NYS. We do have a DEC report from that lake that listed Erimyzon sucetta as present in the lake. It also appears to be much much larger than any listed creek chubsucker record for NY. If it is a Lake Chubsucker it may be the only population in the state since it hasnt been caught since that last DEC report, it could potentially be something completely different since this lake is a kettle lake with no inlet or outlets and therefore has been isolated since the last glacier retreated from the area, its also unlikely to be an introduction I think because I dont think someone would have stocked it or used it as bait. Guess genetics is really the only good way to tell, but thanks for the pictures and your opinion, just been trying to get second and third opinions.

I forgot to mention that we caught six adults all larger than 310mm and the largest 410mm which would rival records for lake chubsucker. We also caught one juvenile, if you think it would help I also have more pictures.

Sure I would love to see more pictures. Maybe with some additional photos I could feel more confident one way or another on what species you have. Lake chubsuckers are also protected here in Ohio and I made a special request through the Ohio Division of Wildlife to be able to breed them here. I started with some fish from out of state where they are more abundant. I was able to breed those so this past spring I acquired some YOY from in state. Those have done very well and appear to large enough to breed already because they can be readily sexed and are the size at which my original group spawned for the first time. I expect to have my first hatch of Ohio captive raised individuals next spring. I don't know if it will ever lead to any releases or restocking in any way but at least I will have developed a method of producing them.

Just out of curiosity how were these fish caught, e-fishing, trap nets, gill nets?

Sure I would love to see more pictures. Maybe with some additional photos I could feel more confident one way or another on what species you have. Lake chubsuckers are also protected here in Ohio and I made a special request through the Ohio Division of Wildlife to be able to breed them here. I started with some fish from out of state where they are more abundant. I was able to breed those so this past spring I acquired some YOY from in state. Those have done very well and appear to large enough to breed already because they can be readily sexed and are the size at which my original group spawned for the first time. I expect to have my first hatch of Ohio captive raised individuals next spring. I don't know if it will ever lead to any releases or restocking in any way but at least I will have developed a method of producing them.

Awesome,

If this does end up being a Lake Chubsucker and there is grant money for ever restoring them to other lakes, although I think they have only been reported in the Lake Ontario here in NY, I'll know who to contact for breeding information. Also they were collected in Trap Nets. I'll post more pictures soon. Thanks again for your help.