Does anyone know of some good ichthyology or other fisheries related textbooks that don't cost an arm and a leg? I don't want a dumbed down book made for entertainment, I don't like those, I like long catalogs of information(such as On The Origin of Species). Any other good bio text books would be good.

Thanks,

Andrew

I get a lot of use out of my "Fishes of Ohio". I don't think any of the really good books are cheap, though. I use these websites to find the cheapest prices, and I keep checking them until I find a price I can afford. If you are patient and persistent, you can get some good deals.

Cheapest Book Price

Fetch Book Info

To be honest, a lot of the published works on fish are old, in black and white, and don't have good photos. The best source for information on fish, and I know this is contradictory to everything you're learning in school right now, but... it's the internet.

I'm not kidding. You can go on youtube and type in the scientific name of a species and watch it swim around in a color video right in front of you. You can go to google and type in the fish name and 'spawning' or 'breeding' and get some very in-depth reports on how to breed the fish. The internet is the best thing to have happened to fish keeping since the invention of home tanks. I absolutely love it.

Also, you can join a local fish club. I'll share a story of my own experience here. I'm in Cleveland, Ohio, and last winter I was looking to buy some Neolamprologus multifasciatus. Those are small shell dwelling cichlids from Lake Tanganyika. Now, I first did some research and found out that none of the local pet stores sold this fish. Then I did some more research and found out they cost about $6 a fish on aquabid.com, and that you have to buy a colony of at least five or six in order for them to be happy and live in their little shells and breed. So it would have cost me, including shipping, about $80 to order them from a seller on aquabid.com. Well, I did some more research and found out that there was a local fish club called the Ohio Cichlid Association, and I went there with my Dad (I didn't want to go alone) and we sat in on a meeting, and It. Was. Awesome. Fellow fish nerds like me got together and that first meeting they demonstrated how to build your own tank out of plywood and pond sealant, which blew my mind. Then at the end of the meeting they had an auction with I'm not kidding, dozens of species of cichlids that you can't find in stores. Fish clubs, I realized, were very valuable. Long story short I am now sitting next to my beautiful Neolamprologus multifasciatus, which are swimming happily around their shell filled home in my aquarium. And I paid $3 for 5 fish. Join a fish club and go out and meet people. It's good times.

Edit post:
Oh, and Ecology of the Planted Aquarium by Diana Walstad. Read that.

Edited by EricaWieser, 10 November 2010 - 05:04 PM.

Susan's right, the best sources of information are usually the "Fishes of..." books, especially more recent releases like Boschung & Mayden's Alabama book. These have high quality photos and illustrations, such as by Joe Tomelleri in the Alabama book (and some by Dave Neely here on the Forum). New they'll cost around $60, but they're the most concise collections of relevant information for native fishes. Straight out textbooks exist too, like Moyle & Cech's book "Fishes", and Gene Helfman's book which title I don't have in front of me(!).

The most useful source is the internet, huh? Maybe so, if you're searching bookfinder.com for used fish books. The death of printed copy has been vastly overrated...

Luckily he's in VA which has one of the best state fish books anywhere: Freshwater Fishes of Virginia by Jenkins & Burkhead, 1994, AFS Publications.
Excellent discussions on habitats, biogeography, ecology, ichthyological history, legal protection, and detailed accounts for each of VA's 210 freshwater species.

To be honest, a lot of the published works on fish are old, in black and white, and don't have good photos. The best source for information on fish, and I know this is contradictory to everything you're learning in school right now, but... it's the internet.

I couldn't disagree with that statement any more. Fishes of Alabama is not exspensive, has amazing color illustrations and black and white drawings and great inforation prior to species accounts. Other books like Fishes of Ohio, Virginia, and Tennessee still have a wealth of icthyological information that you can't find in one location. While color is often relied upon in the field, it is incredibly variable, unreliable, and cannot replace the foundation that a basic understanding of morpholgy and meristics lays. You can also get cheap, used copies of Helfmann's Diversity of Fishes, or any edition of Moyle's recent Icthyology text books.

The internet is a mine field of misinformation and misidentificaitons compared to useful and correct information. This site and a few others are exceptions. Someone wanting to read books on fisheries and icthyology to expand their knowledge (based on what pylodictis said in their welcome post) is far different than someone trying to locate information on the care of a species and purchase it.

Pylodictus, I will send you my copy of Diversity of Fishes if you PM me a mailing address. It's on my books shelf basically for show. Its great to see a young person so interested in ichthyology and this organizaiton and its members should do everything they can to foster such education.

Edited by ashtonmj, 10 November 2010 - 06:07 PM.

The best source for information on fish, and I know this is contradictory to everything you're learning in school right now, but... it's the internet.

Oh lordy no that is not the case...

I might give you this link. It didn't come from me, but, you know.
http://www.4shared.c...ed_Aquariu.html

I'll state it again, he didn't ask about aquarium ecology or aquarium fish. He asked about textbooks in ichthyology and fisheries. The internet may be fine for aquaria related questions, no one is refuting that, but it is not the best source for a foundation in ichthyology.

I'll state it again, he didn't ask about aquarium ecology or aquarium fish. He asked about textbooks in ichthyology and fisheries. The internet may be fine for aquaria related questions, no one is refuting that, but it is not the best source for a foundation in ichthyology.

Thank you, this is quite the case. If you Google "Ichthyology" you will not find any good info. My current understanding of Ichthyology is only from loitering around Universities and badgering professors.

Pylo, Do you know about VA Nature Camp, in Geo.Wash.Nat.For. about 2 hrs west of Richmond? http://naturecamp.net/
Big Marys Creek which runs through the camp has rosyside & redbelly dace, torrent suckers, bluehead chub, sculpin, native brookies, loads of other cool fish. Flip Coulling is the camp director and a GREAT guy. If it's hard to find other teens who share your passion, THIS is the place.

Also, if you can come to Raleigh on Friday June 10 I'll be leading a native fish field trip (eastern Piedmont and upper Coastal Plain) as part of the Raleigh Aquarium Society's annual Carolina Aquarium Workshop.

Thank you, this is quite the case. If you Google "Ichthyology" you will not find any good info. My current understanding of Ichthyology is only from loitering around Universities and badgering professors.

Thanks for that link, looks like a really cool place. Though I can't go this year because I'll be in Germany all of July. And yes, it's not hard, it's nearly impossible. I don't get along with anyone my age. Hopefully that'll change when I transfer to a less awful school in 2 weeks(or should I say I know it will change) where they are concerned with things other than Justin Biber and rap.

Edited by pylodictis, 11 November 2010 - 02:43 PM.

I don't get along with anyone my age. Hopefully that'll change when I transfer to a less awful school in 2 weeks

Aw, you poor kid. Just remember to smile at people and be nice to them. If you're constantly nice to others, you'll make friends in no time.

If I were to start studying ichthyology for the first time today, I'd start with these two books:

Bond's Biology of Fishes

Patterns in Freshwater Fish Ecology

The first is the standard ichthology text used at Tulane (other ichthyology textbooks are also to be recommended -- for example those by Moyle and Helfman, which have already been mentioned).

The second is a good summary treatment of the ecology of freshwater fishes (with an emphasis on North American stream fishes). If your interest lies more in the marine realm, you may not be so interested in this one.

Both are horribly expensive, but can be purchased cheaper used, or can be borrowed from most university libraries.

You may not meet anyone with your interests in high school, or even in undergrad, but grad school will be the world of your dreams. I can say this, because that's exactly what happened to me.

Best of luck!

Travis

If I were to start studying ichthyology for the first time today, I'd start with these two books:

Bond's Biology of Fishes

Patterns in Freshwater Fish Ecology

The first is the standard ichthology text used at Tulane (other ichthyology textbooks are also to be recommended -- for example those by Moyle and Helfman, which have already been mentioned).

The second is a good summary treatment of the ecology of freshwater fishes (with an emphasis on North American stream fishes). If your interest lies more in the marine realm, you may not be so interested in this one.

Both are horribly expensive, but can be purchased cheaper used, or can be borrowed from most university libraries.

You may not meet anyone with your interests in high school, or even in undergrad, but grad school will be the world of your dreams. I can say this, because that's exactly what happened to me.

Best of luck!

Travis

You are right about grad school. And, even with all the university loitering, lecture auditing and pretending to be a fellow I do, those jerks still wont let me barrow books! Also, that's why my aim is to cut all of high school out, get my GED and go straight to community college, then transfer to University. 8th grad is horrid

Do yourself a favor and don't spin your wheels at a community college; you'll be miseducated for going to college. Tuition may seem cheap, but you'll get what you pay for.

I would like to echo Bruce's position on community college. And to add my own personal opinion (and it's only opinion), I would advise you to take high school seriously by way of taking as many AP (advanced placement) courses as possible in high school so you can test out of and/or be well-prepared for college courses like general Biology, general Chemistry, Physics and freshman English. That way when you get to college, you'll have more freedom to take on some independent research, which is what I suspect you'll be most interested in doing.

And take a writing course in high school if it's available. Writing is a skill best learned before undergrad. You'll continue to hone the skill your entire life, but high school is the place to master the basics...not in undergrad or grad school. High school doesn't have to be a waste of time, but it can be for those who choose to make it one.

Travis

I'll further Travis' sentiments about proper preparation before college. I went to a "college prepatory" highschool (i.e. $$$). In my view it was far from it, more of a liberal arts/trade school. They were preparing people for the major industries of a typical midwestern metropolitan area, skilled and unskilled manual labor, accountants, lawyers, etc. In fact, I would place a small wager that I am one of two or three non-medical life science professionals in the last decade. The science program was woefully behind the time by at least a decade. We literally watched a video about the canals on Mars (this is the mid 90s). Chemistry had no lab component, only three courses over four years were required, introductory Biology was a joke, and somehow I skated by with no physics. As a result, I struggled incredibly in college (inorganic) chemistry and physics even though I was 2-3 years ahead in math and I had somewhere around a 3.5-3.75 GPA in biology classes. Plain and simple I was underprepared. The same goes for writing. Grad school (which I wouldn't worry about just yet in your case since were talking almost a decade away) is about two things, research and writing. You're essentially expected to know how to do both with some proficiency and independence. Like most things, it's not a sprint, it's a marathon.

Edited by ashtonmj, 13 November 2010 - 08:50 AM.

I would like to echo Bruce's position on community college. And to add my own personal opinion (and it's only opinion), I would advise you to take high school seriously by way of taking as many AP (advanced placement) courses as possible in high school

I agree. Take as many AP courses as you can in high school.

Also do as much research as possible in college. That's the thing I tell all of our incoming freshman, because out-of-class experience really sets you apart from everyone else on a job application and in selection processes.

I'm a Chemical Engineering major in undergraduate college right now, and I can tell you from personal experience that which college you go to and what you do to prepare for it makes a huge difference. I'm at Case Western Reserve University, and I love it. It's an engineering school. A couple of my friends went to community college first before trying to transfer into four year schools, with the thought that it would save them money. Well, it turns out, different schools offer different financial aid packages.

When I graduated from high school, these were my options:
1. Lorain County Community College offered me free tuition (because of my good grades. I had a 3.95 high school GPA) if I wanted a degree in "Urban Studies" (*gag*)
2. Toledo University (a state school. Typically people view these as being less expensive) offered me absolutely no tuition help and I would have had to pay $16,000 a year to go there.
3. Case Western Reserve University, an excellent engineering school that ranking-wise kicks Toledo's butt, but has a sticker price of $50,000 a year, offered me the vast majority of the tuition covered by scholarships and grants and loans. By everyone's estimates this school was supposed to be the most expensive, but after their financial aid package it ended up costing less than the state school. And the first semester I was there I took classes that weren't offered at the community college.

So don't just believe what people tell you, that community college costs less. LCCC does only cost $3,000 a year, but they don't offer any engineering courses, so that wasn't really an option for me. And my minor is Japanese. Do you know what kind of Japanese courses I'm taking at Case versus at Toledo or LCCC? Literally my teachers are from Japan, the course work is fast paced and you learn something new every day, and it's the best program I've ever encountered anywhere. They do exchanges with Japan every year with an engineering school in Tokyo, Waseda University. And it's awesome. And my engineering courses are of excellent quality. (They're hard!)

Anyway, my point is, choose what's best for you and don't let some of that talk you hear about community college being less expensive convince you to go there if you don't want to. I have some friends who went to community college, dropped out, and never made it to transferring to their dream school. Don't let that be you.


...
That being said, you really gotta be nice to people, kid. There's no way you can get through life being an elitist. If you don't have friends right now, that's a big issue, and it means there's something wrong with how you're treating others. No one likes a know it all, kid. You gotta shut your mouth and stick it up and actually treat the people around you with respect. Do you think you can continue not having friends you whole life? No. You're going to have to be in a work environment with bosses, co-workers, and underlings, surrounded by people no matter what profession you're in. I know some of my fellow engineering majors are having a tough time of it now because they never learned how to be nice to people, so they're finding themselves up a creek without a paddle as far as job prospects and future career goes. You have to make friends with people in order to network. If people don't like you, if they think you're full of yourself or an elitist or just a sour personality, they won't hire you because no one wants to work with that guy.

Be nice to people. Not having friends at this point in your life is a giant red flag for sociopathy and other scary syndromes. Join a club or a sport, but do something and learn how to interact with people.

Edited by EricaWieser, 13 November 2010 - 12:04 PM.