I am debating upgrading my 20 long minnow tank to a 29 gallon, basicly keeping the same substrate, decorations, sand, and filters (I have 30 gallons of filters their already), just new glass and more water.
Will the tank still cycle as a new tank if only the glass and a few gallons is changed?
cycling and new glass
Started by
Guest_FirstChAoS_*
, Nov 19 2010 03:00 AM
20 replies to this topic
#3
littlen
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Posted 19 November 2010 - 09:06 AM
"Seeding" the tank is what you're talking about doing. I frequently do that using just gravel from an existing (established) tank into a new one. So long as you don't increase your bio load (# of fish) and give the tank time to 'catch up' you should be able to make the switch without any issues. I would say a week or two should be plenty of time to wait if you are thining of adding a few more fish.
Nick L.
#5
Guest_EricaWieser_*
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Posted 19 November 2010 - 10:22 AM
The surface area of gravel is so much less that the surface area in your filters that there is no comparison. We're talking the difference between a meter squared and hundreds of meters squared. The sponges and high surface area materials in your filter are hundreds and hundreds of meters squared of surface area, and surface area is where the nitrosomonas and nitrospira bacteria are that convert ammonia to nitrite to nitrate. Just read this:
"Due to its high degree of microporosity, just 1 gram of activated carbon has a surface area in excess of 500 m2 (about one tenth the size of a football field), as determined typically by nitrogen gas adsorption" from http://en.wikipedia....ctivated_carbon
Please read this article: http://www.fishkeepi...ing-article.htm
Ammonia is toxic in extremely low doses, 1 to 2 parts per million (ppm). That's why the nitrosomonas bacteria that convert ammonia into nitrite are good, because nitrite isn't toxic until higher concentrations. And the nitrospira bacteria are also beneficial; nitrite is converted to nitrate, which isn't toxic until about 30 to 40 parts per million. That's why the nitrogen cycling bacteria are good; they convert ammonia to less toxic nitrate. And those bacteria live only on surfaces, not deep within materials. And surfaces are, in a huge amount, found in your filter. A filter being defined as anything with high water flow over a large surface area material, for example a sponge.
My point is, to wrap this all up, the gravel does Nothing. Absolutely nothing. One meter squared compared to hundreds of meters squared. The filter is where the bacteria are at. If you keep the filter from an established tank, and you keep it wet with tank water during transition, your new aquarium will be just as cycled as your old aquarium. You do not have to keep tank water (zero surface area) or gravel (minimal surface area) or the glass (puh-leeze). Just keep that filter media, and keep it wet.
"Due to its high degree of microporosity, just 1 gram of activated carbon has a surface area in excess of 500 m2 (about one tenth the size of a football field), as determined typically by nitrogen gas adsorption" from http://en.wikipedia....ctivated_carbon
Please read this article: http://www.fishkeepi...ing-article.htm
Ammonia is toxic in extremely low doses, 1 to 2 parts per million (ppm). That's why the nitrosomonas bacteria that convert ammonia into nitrite are good, because nitrite isn't toxic until higher concentrations. And the nitrospira bacteria are also beneficial; nitrite is converted to nitrate, which isn't toxic until about 30 to 40 parts per million. That's why the nitrogen cycling bacteria are good; they convert ammonia to less toxic nitrate. And those bacteria live only on surfaces, not deep within materials. And surfaces are, in a huge amount, found in your filter. A filter being defined as anything with high water flow over a large surface area material, for example a sponge.
My point is, to wrap this all up, the gravel does Nothing. Absolutely nothing. One meter squared compared to hundreds of meters squared. The filter is where the bacteria are at. If you keep the filter from an established tank, and you keep it wet with tank water during transition, your new aquarium will be just as cycled as your old aquarium. You do not have to keep tank water (zero surface area) or gravel (minimal surface area) or the glass (puh-leeze). Just keep that filter media, and keep it wet.
Edited by EricaWieser, 19 November 2010 - 10:24 AM.
#6
Guest_jblaylock_*
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Posted 19 November 2010 - 11:18 AM
My point is, to wrap this all up, the gravel does Nothing. Absolutely nothing. One meter squared compared to hundreds of meters squared. The filter is where the bacteria are at. If you keep the filter from an established tank, and you keep it wet with tank water during transition, your new aquarium will be just as cycled as your old aquarium. You do not have to keep tank water (zero surface area) or gravel (minimal surface area) or the glass (puh-leeze). Just keep that filter media, and keep it wet.
I disagree here. I think keeping the tank water is very important. There are other factors with the water than just surface area for bacteria. You don't want to stress fish by introducing 100% new water that may have difference parameters (metals/minerals/etc..) than previous water.
#7
Guest_nativeplanter_*
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Posted 19 November 2010 - 11:20 AM
My point is, to wrap this all up, the gravel does Nothing. Absolutely nothing. One meter squared compared to hundreds of meters squared. The filter is where the bacteria are at.
I beg to differ. The gravel holds boatloads of bacteria, especially since, in an estblished tank, it likely contains a lot of mulm. To be honest, if I had a choice between saving the filter or saving the gravel, I'd pick the gravel. Especially in cases where the filter is a HOB type.
#8
Guest_fundulus_*
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Posted 19 November 2010 - 11:26 AM
If you start with the heavy seeding of bacteria from gravel, they'll multiply very quickly in favorable settings such as new tanks with large amounts of their food source, various nitrogenous compounds. Most of these organisms can double their population size every 20 minutes at optimal conditions, so that's seriously exponential population growth.
#9
Guest_AussiePeter_*
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Posted 19 November 2010 - 12:08 PM
My point is, to wrap this all up, the gravel does Nothing. Absolutely nothing.
I'll add to the list of disagreeance. My filters only consist of gravel and they all do just fine with very high numbers of fish and high feeding levels too. I just drop a goldfish bowl undergravel filter in to a pint tub from home depot and fill it with gravel. Costs around $3 and works great.
I'll also add that cycling tanks, if you move water and / or filter substrate from your old tank, is pretty much a waste of your time. It's just a myth to make people buy more test kits that you don't need. There are exceptions to that, but not in 98% of cases.
Tootles
Peter Unmack
#10
Michael Wolfe
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Posted 19 November 2010 - 12:48 PM
What about my Walsted tank... no filters... just good red georgia clay some sand and plants! were are all those little guys hiding? 
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin
#11
Guest_gerald_*
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Posted 19 November 2010 - 01:45 PM
The upper layer of sand or gravel has considerable surface area and should have plenty of nitrifying bacteria, since that where the fish poop falls. If your filter bacteria die for some reason (e.g. power failure and it goes anoxic) then those nitrifying bacteria in the substrate are your best friends.
For maximimum survival, scoop or siphon off the top half-inch of sand before moving it, and replace it as the top substrate layer in the new tank. The deeper anaerobic layer may contain de-nitrifying bacteria that are also valuable (for converting nitrate to N2 gas).
Regarding the surface area of activated carbon that Erica reported, that number is based on area available for GAS transfer in dry carbon. Water is of course much more viscous (less movement in/out of microscopic pores), and in a fishtank filter it is quickly coated with bacterial slime making it not much different in surface area from sand or gravel of similar grain size. Fresh activated carbon is fine to use for short-term chemical adsorption benefits, and there's nothing wrong with using old activated carbon as biomedia, but I wouldn't buy carbon just to use as bio-media. I use Poret foam, coarse sand, small gravel, or small lavarock for biomedia.
For maximimum survival, scoop or siphon off the top half-inch of sand before moving it, and replace it as the top substrate layer in the new tank. The deeper anaerobic layer may contain de-nitrifying bacteria that are also valuable (for converting nitrate to N2 gas).
Regarding the surface area of activated carbon that Erica reported, that number is based on area available for GAS transfer in dry carbon. Water is of course much more viscous (less movement in/out of microscopic pores), and in a fishtank filter it is quickly coated with bacterial slime making it not much different in surface area from sand or gravel of similar grain size. Fresh activated carbon is fine to use for short-term chemical adsorption benefits, and there's nothing wrong with using old activated carbon as biomedia, but I wouldn't buy carbon just to use as bio-media. I use Poret foam, coarse sand, small gravel, or small lavarock for biomedia.
#12
Guest_Newt_*
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Posted 19 November 2010 - 02:19 PM
The population of bacteria in your tank will depend on the nutrients and surface area available. The bacteria will preferentially colonize areas where they have the best access to nutrients, dissolved oxygen, and a colonizeable substrate. So, if you have a biofilter that provides all that, then your gravel may be relatively depauperate in bacteria. Conversely, if your filter does not do a good job of running nutrient-rich, high-DO water across its media, then the gravel will be the main area colonized by bacteria, regardless of relative surface area.
The "more surface area is better" shenanigans of the filter manufacturers are largely sales gimmicks. Your tank only needs so much colonizeable surface area, and the micropores in many media types so swiftly get clogged with mulm or dead bacteria that they shouldn't be counted as colonizeable surface area.
The "more surface area is better" shenanigans of the filter manufacturers are largely sales gimmicks. Your tank only needs so much colonizeable surface area, and the micropores in many media types so swiftly get clogged with mulm or dead bacteria that they shouldn't be counted as colonizeable surface area.
#13
Guest_bumpylemon_*
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Posted 19 November 2010 - 04:41 PM
hah me too. i havent touched that tank in months...no deaths...they love it...even have bloodworms living in it!What about my Walsted tank... no filters... just good red georgia clay some sand and plants! were are all those little guys hiding?
#14
Guest_mikez_*
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Posted 19 November 2010 - 05:01 PM
I'll also add that cycling tanks, if you move water and / or filter substrate from your old tank, is pretty much a waste of your time. It's just a myth to make people buy more test kits that you don't need. There are exceptions to that, but not in 98% of cases.
Tootles
Peter Unmack
Amen to that!
Everyone is right.
Keep all your filter media and at least some gravel and some old water. Yer goodtogo.
#15
Guest_EricaWieser_*
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Posted 19 November 2010 - 06:24 PM
Regarding the surface area of activated carbon that Erica reported, that number is based on area available for GAS transfer in dry carbon.
True, the activated carbon surface area quote was for gas transfer. That doesn't invalidate the idea that the surface area of the sponges in my filter, which have water moving through them and are not blocked by sludge, is much higher than that of my gravel. The surface area of a sponge is much greater than that of its size. If you read this math problem with a sponge with very large pores (so, a conservative estimate), you'll see that this 2 inch by 3 inch by 5 inch sponge has 17 inches of surface area. http://www.eqna.org/...rea-of-a-sponge
For the Walstad tank people, Diana Walstad address what happens to the nitrogen cycle in her tank in her book Ecology of the Planted Aquarium. In short, the plants so outnumber the fish that they are easily able to absorb all of the available nitrogen. Please read her book.
Edited by EricaWieser, 19 November 2010 - 06:28 PM.
#16
Michael Wolfe
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Posted 19 November 2010 - 09:35 PM
For the Walstad tank people, Diana Walstad address what happens to the nitrogen cycle in her tank in her book Ecology of the Planted Aquarium. In short, the plants so outnumber the fish that they are easily able to absorb all of the available nitrogen. Please read her book.
Yes, I have read the book, I was just making a joke... but I do believe in the value of moving substrate... and I have moved and set up tanks that seemed to be "instantly cycled" by keeping the substrate, some plants and half or more of the water from the original tank.
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin
#17
Guest_Irate Mormon_*
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Posted 20 November 2010 - 12:39 AM
Erica, you have smacked your head squarely against the wall between theory and practice. ](*,)It is good to read books - I have read a LOT of them. But there is no substitute for experience.
I went through a phase many many years ago, in the early days of the internet, when I wanted to be the fish answer guy. Whatever question came up, I wanted to be the one who had the definitive answer. I wrote articles for all the magazines. I posted to the major newsgroups (they didn't have forums like this in those days). You couldn't tell me ANYTHING!
I outgrew all that when I met a some guys who weren't very vocal but had forgotten more than I will ever learn. Foremost among them was BG Granier, a NANFA member at the time. It was then that I decided to shut up and listen. I haven't stopped learning since. There is wisdom here for those who would receive it.
I went through a phase many many years ago, in the early days of the internet, when I wanted to be the fish answer guy. Whatever question came up, I wanted to be the one who had the definitive answer. I wrote articles for all the magazines. I posted to the major newsgroups (they didn't have forums like this in those days). You couldn't tell me ANYTHING!
I outgrew all that when I met a some guys who weren't very vocal but had forgotten more than I will ever learn. Foremost among them was BG Granier, a NANFA member at the time. It was then that I decided to shut up and listen. I haven't stopped learning since. There is wisdom here for those who would receive it.
#18
Guest_jblaylock_*
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Posted 24 November 2010 - 01:09 PM
I went through a phase many many years ago, in the early days of the internet, when I wanted to be the fish answer guy. Whatever question came up, I wanted to be the one who had the definitive answer.
I don't know...I think you still have a pretty definitive answer to most fish problem questions and that answer is 100% everytime though your timing may be off.
#20
Guest_FirstChAoS_*
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Posted 29 November 2010 - 02:35 AM
I moved all the gravel, water, mulm (which took a day of filtering to clear up), and one of the two massive plants to the new tank as well as one of the two filters. (the others suction cup broke off so I used a different one, the filter I am using was rated more than 20 gallons despite being in my old 20). I also removed the bullhead which was getting close to the "eat other fish" size.
I hope this will not give it cycling issues. So far the fish are doing better than ever with all the freed space.
I hope this will not give it cycling issues. So far the fish are doing better than ever with all the freed space.
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