I'm currently interning at a wildlife center, and was thinking about doing a project of adding fishes to their native aquatic section. They have lots of little tanks with frogs, newts, etc... and a nice massive tank for a couple turtles (Eastern Spotted, Diamondback terrapin, and 2 nonnative Red-Eared Sliders). The largest of these guys is about 8", reaching a max of about 10" eventually. The tank itself is a custom pond setup - I don't think anyone knows offhand how many gallons it is, but it is at least 10 feet long and probably 7 feet wide. It's not terribly deep, maybe a foot and a half? There's plenty of fake plants and outcroppings too.
I was thinking some faster or larger fish might do well, and be a fairly low-maintenance addition (since there's so much filtration already for the turtles). We are in Massachusetts, so native fish to here would be preferred.
I was thinking maybe some sunfishes, shiners, and a bullhead. What species would be best to house together and not be harassed by the turtles? Would multiple species of sunfish be recommended so that they don't mate, or would that maybe be an interesting spectacle in an education center?
Any feedback is much appreciated. This is not necessarily going to happen - just speculation on my part.
Fish that can be kept with native turtles?
Started by
Guest_moonstruckmuse_*
, Dec 25 2010 11:19 PM
17 replies to this topic
#2
Michael Wolfe
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Posted 26 December 2010 - 08:56 AM
... and a nice massive tank for a couple turtles (Eastern Spotted, Diamondback terrapin, and 2 nonnative Red-Eared Sliders). The largest of these guys is about 8", reaching a max of about 10" eventually. The tank itself is a custom pond setup - I don't think anyone knows offhand how many gallons it is, but it is at least 10 feet long and probably 7 feet wide. It's not terribly deep, maybe a foot and a half? There's plenty of fake plants and outcroppings too.
I am not that familiar with the turtles, but I thought that terrapin are meat eaters... so you will likely have soem problems with keeping fish in there... but if as you say there is plenty of filtration and you have fast enough fish... well it might work...
Native sunfish would be a good idea, and you could have quite a few in a tank that large. And they would be quick enough and large enough to likely avoid predation by the terrapin.
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#5
littlen
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Posted 27 December 2010 - 11:49 AM
Your tank sounds pretty big if the dimentions you supplied are correct. A few sunfish/larger shiners would be fine to go with any of those turtles. However, terrapins live in brackish water. I don't know if you're trying to go for an ecologically accurate tank, but RES (Red ear sliders)/Spotteds are not found in the same haibtat has terrapins. I would assume you're just trying to display native (and one introduced) species in the same tank--which is fine. And I have kept terrapins in completely FW with no ill effects. But you could have two, totally different, and really cool exhibits if you have the space to split your species. One tank could be a pond with your RES, Spotted turtles, sunfish, and shiners. The other could be a really cool marsh exhibit with your terrapins, mummichogs, spot, croaker, etc.
Just be mindful that aquatic turtles are very(x10) dirty animals. They are messy eaters and add a lot of "waste" to the water daily. You said that there is already a good amount of filtration on the system for the turtles. If you're going to be adding a fair number of fish, be mindful of the water quality as only the fish will really suffer if the parameters deteriorate.
Just be mindful that aquatic turtles are very(x10) dirty animals. They are messy eaters and add a lot of "waste" to the water daily. You said that there is already a good amount of filtration on the system for the turtles. If you're going to be adding a fair number of fish, be mindful of the water quality as only the fish will really suffer if the parameters deteriorate.
Nick L.
#6
Guest_moonstruckmuse_*
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Posted 27 December 2010 - 04:38 PM
Thanks for all the suggestions! I'll be looking into a lot of these fellows.
Would it be possible or desirable to have multiple types of sunfishes (warmouth, pumpkinseeds, longears)together, or would a small group of one be better, do you think?
Asides from golden shiners, what are some of the bigger shiners?
I'm 99% sure all the turtles are together because we only have one big tank for turtles, no other reason. I'm not sure if there's salt in the water for the terrapin - I doubt it, actually. I'll ask about him tomorrow. I'm also aware that the RES are not native, especially since we're trying to do it local to MA. They were left here and I believe they're looking for owners for them... or maybe just using them as educational animals to point out that they do indeed get bigger.
A marsh exhibit would be SO COOL and I'd love to do that... but I don't think we have the space or money, unfortunately. I'll definitely look into that though - that'd be so neat.
I'll also ask about the filtration again. I've seen RES in a lab setup, so I know just how dirty they can get... but the water in the tank always looks excellent and there's a huge hidden filter that seems to do the job. I'll look at some parameters tomorrow.
Would it be possible or desirable to have multiple types of sunfishes (warmouth, pumpkinseeds, longears)together, or would a small group of one be better, do you think?
Asides from golden shiners, what are some of the bigger shiners?
I'm 99% sure all the turtles are together because we only have one big tank for turtles, no other reason. I'm not sure if there's salt in the water for the terrapin - I doubt it, actually. I'll ask about him tomorrow. I'm also aware that the RES are not native, especially since we're trying to do it local to MA. They were left here and I believe they're looking for owners for them... or maybe just using them as educational animals to point out that they do indeed get bigger.
A marsh exhibit would be SO COOL and I'd love to do that... but I don't think we have the space or money, unfortunately. I'll definitely look into that though - that'd be so neat.
I'll also ask about the filtration again. I've seen RES in a lab setup, so I know just how dirty they can get... but the water in the tank always looks excellent and there's a huge hidden filter that seems to do the job. I'll look at some parameters tomorrow.
#7
Guest_mikez_*
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Posted 27 December 2010 - 05:57 PM
I've kept fish with turtles successfully a few times over the years although many will tell you it can't be done.
I kept a small snapper with an oscar for years and found the fish more a bully to the turtle than the other way around - until a prolonged winter power failure layed the oscar low and the snapper got his revenge.
Well fed captive turtles are too lazy to chase healthy active fish, especially if they are too big to be bite sized. The exception is when captive turtles are regularly fed live fish 'cause the keeper thinks it's cool to watch the mayhem.
The limiting factor really is filtration. Turtles poop a ridiculous amount and turtle food tends to be fatty and doesn't break down as quick and easy as fish poop. Fish will have a harder time dealing with the dirty water than turtles, although most captive turtles eventually pay the price as well. Frankly I don't consider aquatic turtles to be suitable captives for the general public for that reason. My time working at the vet's office as well as my time trying to help turtle keepers on the herp forums brought me to that conclusion.
A few pumpkinseeds would work if they are big enough. The other species you mention are not native, although the set up as it is does not come close to being natural,
Where in Ma is the nature center?
I kept a small snapper with an oscar for years and found the fish more a bully to the turtle than the other way around - until a prolonged winter power failure layed the oscar low and the snapper got his revenge.
Well fed captive turtles are too lazy to chase healthy active fish, especially if they are too big to be bite sized. The exception is when captive turtles are regularly fed live fish 'cause the keeper thinks it's cool to watch the mayhem.
The limiting factor really is filtration. Turtles poop a ridiculous amount and turtle food tends to be fatty and doesn't break down as quick and easy as fish poop. Fish will have a harder time dealing with the dirty water than turtles, although most captive turtles eventually pay the price as well. Frankly I don't consider aquatic turtles to be suitable captives for the general public for that reason. My time working at the vet's office as well as my time trying to help turtle keepers on the herp forums brought me to that conclusion.
A few pumpkinseeds would work if they are big enough. The other species you mention are not native, although the set up as it is does not come close to being natural,
Where in Ma is the nature center?
#8
littlen
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Posted 28 December 2010 - 08:52 AM
Yes, you should be able to keep multiple sunfish species together. Common shiners (although rather drab) could be easily obtained and get fairly large as do some of the other members in the Luxilus genus. Since I imagine you could pick these up from your bait shop, it wouldn't be the end of the world if your turtles or sunfish munched on a few. Creek chubs can also reach a 'larger' size, although in my experience their attitudes and appetites get even bigger than they do.
You have quite a few fish options--more so than the few I just mentioned. Maybe a member of the Esocidae family?!? Just be sure your filtration is up to par.
You have quite a few fish options--more so than the few I just mentioned. Maybe a member of the Esocidae family?!? Just be sure your filtration is up to par.
Nick L.
#9
Guest_moonstruckmuse_*
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Posted 28 December 2010 - 11:28 PM
Haha, I want to keep it fairly simple with just a few species so that it's easy to maintain, though I LOVE the idea of making really intricate, dynamic systems. I'm only here as an intern and will be moving on shortly, so I don't want to burden less fishy folk too much.
I understand everyone's concerns about the turtle health, fish health, etc. I truly and firmly believe that the turtles are fine, and that the fish will also be added responsibly and appropriately - I'm speaking about the New England Wildlife Center, which was started and is run by a Herpetologist veterinarian, and has PLENTY of herp experience and passion from many sides. There's a few vets that work here, multiple vet techs, and tons of pre-veterinary interns (of which I am one). It's a really cool place in South Weymouth, worth a visit! They don't mind me being open about the place here, but please don't harass them because of it? Haha.
I forgot bait shops existed! Oh man, maybe I could get started sooner than I thought, hahaha.
I thought about the Esocidae - my understanding is that they jump though, and this is basically an open pond - no covering at all. I'd really hate to lose fish that way, or worse, have a fish that could bite (and injure) the hand that tried to rescue it, haha.
Are pumpkinseeds the only native sunfish in MA? I was under the impression that most of them extended up here, but I keep thinking PA/NJ fish are the same as the ones up here.
I understand everyone's concerns about the turtle health, fish health, etc. I truly and firmly believe that the turtles are fine, and that the fish will also be added responsibly and appropriately - I'm speaking about the New England Wildlife Center, which was started and is run by a Herpetologist veterinarian, and has PLENTY of herp experience and passion from many sides. There's a few vets that work here, multiple vet techs, and tons of pre-veterinary interns (of which I am one). It's a really cool place in South Weymouth, worth a visit! They don't mind me being open about the place here, but please don't harass them because of it? Haha.
I forgot bait shops existed! Oh man, maybe I could get started sooner than I thought, hahaha.
I thought about the Esocidae - my understanding is that they jump though, and this is basically an open pond - no covering at all. I'd really hate to lose fish that way, or worse, have a fish that could bite (and injure) the hand that tried to rescue it, haha.
Are pumpkinseeds the only native sunfish in MA? I was under the impression that most of them extended up here, but I keep thinking PA/NJ fish are the same as the ones up here.
#11
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Posted 29 December 2010 - 04:08 AM
Any native fish will be fine with turtles as long as you understand a few things:
1) All fish are potential targets, even those much larger than the turtles in question. Turtles aren't always aggressive due to hunger... often with something bigger it could be territorial aggression. If you search the interwebz, you can find stories of sliders and other turtles slowly taking down huge koi by nipping at their fins little by little.
2) Some fish are dangerous to the turtles as well. I would avoid anything with barbs or serious plates as these can be an issue if a turtle does start to take nips at the fish.
3) Stress. Large fish can be just as stressful for turtles as the turtles are for the fish. I've heard many stories of large koi and bass harassing turtles relentlessly. This can especially be dangerous with the Spotted turtle (if indeed you mean Clemmys guttata by 'Eastern Spotted') as they aren't the best swimmers. No one wants a drowning.
None of these things are definite. They all depend on the personalities of the fish and turtles in question... it's a crapshoot at best.
Josh
1) All fish are potential targets, even those much larger than the turtles in question. Turtles aren't always aggressive due to hunger... often with something bigger it could be territorial aggression. If you search the interwebz, you can find stories of sliders and other turtles slowly taking down huge koi by nipping at their fins little by little.
2) Some fish are dangerous to the turtles as well. I would avoid anything with barbs or serious plates as these can be an issue if a turtle does start to take nips at the fish.
3) Stress. Large fish can be just as stressful for turtles as the turtles are for the fish. I've heard many stories of large koi and bass harassing turtles relentlessly. This can especially be dangerous with the Spotted turtle (if indeed you mean Clemmys guttata by 'Eastern Spotted') as they aren't the best swimmers. No one wants a drowning.
None of these things are definite. They all depend on the personalities of the fish and turtles in question... it's a crapshoot at best.
Josh
#12
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Posted 29 December 2010 - 05:56 PM
I agree with all the advice given above. I've kept sunfish, golden shiners, and goldfish with sliders, stinkpots, and painted turtles. Casualties are rare but do occur, probably opportunistically (healthy fish are ignored, sickly or injured ones targeted).
Just a note: I have seen (yellow-bellied) sliders and diamondback terrapins at the same site. The fresh-to-brackish transition zone is gradual and used by both "freshwater" species and terrapins.
Also: resist any temptation to add a common snapper to the tank. They will happily murder fish and turtles, even ones their own size or larger.
Just a note: I have seen (yellow-bellied) sliders and diamondback terrapins at the same site. The fresh-to-brackish transition zone is gradual and used by both "freshwater" species and terrapins.
Also: resist any temptation to add a common snapper to the tank. They will happily murder fish and turtles, even ones their own size or larger.
#14
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Posted 30 December 2010 - 04:49 PM
I have a pair of 4-5" painted turtles in a tank with some bluegill. At first I added around 15 young bluegill less than an inch in length as feeders. The turtles were able to catch them with ease and all but one were eaten in the first 24 hours. The one remaining bluegill learned to hide in the roots of the water lettuce floating on the surface, and survived until the water lettuce was removed. Currently I have six bluegill ranging in size from 2-4 inches. They acclimated quickly to eat flake food, and have been living with the turtles since mid-summer. No fish have had their tails nipped, and the turtles don't seem to view them as food.
#15
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Posted 30 December 2010 - 07:42 PM
I have a pair of 4-5" painted turtles in a tank with some bluegill. At first I added around 15 young bluegill less than an inch in length as feeders. The turtles were able to catch them with ease and all but one were eaten in the first 24 hours. The one remaining bluegill learned to hide in the roots of the water lettuce floating on the surface, and survived until the water lettuce was removed. Currently I have six bluegill ranging in size from 2-4 inches. They acclimated quickly to eat flake food, and have been living with the turtles since mid-summer. No fish have had their tails nipped, and the turtles don't seem to view them as food.
All turtles are especially carnivorous when young. Wild Painteds are almost entirely herbivorous by adulthood, and studies have found that most of their carnivorous intake is opportunistic feeding rather than predatory feeding (think scavenged and easy prey like small snails/insect larvae). My Midland will always chase fish when I first introduce them to the tank, but I keep faster fish that he rarely (if ever) catches. Eventually he gives up, and only chases them on rare occasions. He actually dives at them from his basking area, mouth agape, from time to time.
It can often be a matter of how much effort your turtle has to put in to get the meal. Some, like mine, won't put in much effort. Some will relentlessly chase the biggest, baddest fish until he conquers it. Most won't bother with hard targets and be happy with the easy meal provided by you.
Josh
#16
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Posted 01 January 2011 - 11:36 PM
Hahahaha, no thought of adding snappers to the tank, don't worry. We end up rehabing a ton of those and sending them on their way pretty quick - losing human body parts to a turtle is a no go, here. We do have a bunch of singly kept turtles as well.
Thanks for all the advice! I am definitely aware that casualties will occur from time to time, just trying to minimize the damage. Since the turtles are all older and have been eating pellets forever, my guess is that they shouldn't be a huge problem, but we'll find out soon I suppose. We keep a good eye on them though, so if anyone's bullying anyone else, they can be separated pretty easily. Thanks again!
Thanks for all the advice! I am definitely aware that casualties will occur from time to time, just trying to minimize the damage. Since the turtles are all older and have been eating pellets forever, my guess is that they shouldn't be a huge problem, but we'll find out soon I suppose. We keep a good eye on them though, so if anyone's bullying anyone else, they can be separated pretty easily. Thanks again!
#17
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Posted 10 April 2011 - 04:13 AM
In my 75 I have two native turtles. The one I have had the longest is a Mississippi Mud and the other is a Redear or what we call greenbacks. I also have a Redear out in the pond. The Mississippi Mud is going on two years and is only at the most, 1 inch. It only eats Shrimp pellets and algae. I have a piece of wood for them to coral up on and only the redear uses it. The only time the Mississippi Mud comes to the surface is for air. And it is not much of a swimmer. It just walks around on the bottom picking at the algae ad digging through the gravel. The Redear I caught two weeks ago and it is a baby. Now the one that is in the pond started out in the 75. I have a small Snapper in his own 10 gallon tank. I feed it peeled shrimp and any dead fish I have. It gets feed with bamboo sticks. My fingers aren’t getting anywhere close to that sucker. It is only three years old.
#18
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Posted 03 May 2011 - 05:58 PM
I keep a redear slider with multiple sunfish and chubs. He kills anything that rests on the bottom so i gave up on crawfish, catfish etc. Heres an older picture.
ps. no plants... they dont last long with a turtle
ps. no plants... they dont last long with a turtle
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