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Invasive Native Minnow found in NH


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#1 Guest_FirstChAoS_*

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Posted 07 February 2011 - 11:06 PM

I just read about this in Hawkeye a NH hunting and fishing paper and had to search for an article on it online.

In Hewes Brook in Lyme NH they found rosyside dace. A new species for NH and an exotic non native one at that. Not every invasive is from abroad, still i wonder if i should try catching some this summer.

http://des.nh.gov/me...110119-fish.htm

#2 Guest_gerald_*

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Posted 08 February 2011 - 12:29 PM

Sounds like good fuel for those who want strict regulations on fish collecting and trade.
I hope it wasn't a NANFA connection or vendor that caused it.

#3 Guest_FirstChAoS_*

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Posted 08 February 2011 - 01:51 PM

Sounds like good fuel for those who want strict regulations on fish collecting and trade.
I hope it wasn't a NANFA connection or vendor that caused it.


My first worried thought when i saw the article was "I hope those were not what we caught in New York" then I realized what we caught were redside dace not rosyside.

I have considered the possibility of a rogue NANFAn playing "Johnny Pumpkinseed" before, after all most members have thought of it, but was told by a couple other members I went sampling with not to ask it as the possibility of finger pointing, paranoia, and blame going to everyone who found a new fish in their sampling area could be destructive. Still it does explain darter introductions (such as tesselated in the merrimack drainage and rainbows in schohairie) as darters are rarely bait fish in most states and relatively unknown to fishermen.

This whole scenario gives me mixed feelings.

On one hand I worry about the damage a new minnow may cause to existing species and the possible backlash against collercting.

On the other hand I am excited on a new species for me to catch I never seen before and the possibility of new england fish maybe getting respect now a colorful minnow was discovered here (after all, I heard alot that other other states turn up their nose at new england fish and even some new englanders in NANFA hate the native new england fish species).

#4 Guest_az9_*

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Posted 08 February 2011 - 02:32 PM

I was fishing a lake in northern Maine with my dad when a float plane showed up and a few people started fishing. After they left we picked up litter and minnows laying on the ground they had apparently brought in with them which is strictly forbidden. They looked to be some kind of dace. We told the resort owner about it and he was going to have a talk with the pilot as he had a good idea who it was.

It just grieves me that people are so selfish and callous to the environment, and the pilot had to know they had live minnows with them. We believe they had a minnow bucket with them but couldn't be 100 percent sure by the distance we were from them. However that was moot as even dead minnows were forbidden.

There was one pond up there with a cabin in which the owner flew in from time to time with his float plane. Our resort owner had permission for us to fish the pond. The guy was a real pig as he appeared to throw his garbage out the window and the yard was littered with refuse. The pond was so choked with chubs it was a waste of time to try for a brook trout. It just amazed me how beautiful it was up there but this guy used it as his garbage dump.

From my experience anglers are the biggest clandestine stockers of fish whether they do it intentionally or not.

Edited by az9, 08 February 2011 - 02:36 PM.


#5 Guest_brookiechaser_*

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Posted 08 February 2011 - 03:34 PM

My guess is that it wasn't a NANFA type collector that spread these fish. My guess is that it was likely a bait bucket introduction.

#6 Guest_Jan_*

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Posted 08 February 2011 - 05:07 PM

My guess is that it wasn't a NANFA type collector that spread these fish. My guess is that it was likely a bait bucket introduction.

My vote is for a dumped bait bucket. Why would a Nanfa person go to the bother of stealth stocking. Just not what we're about.

#7 Michael Wolfe

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Posted 08 February 2011 - 11:59 PM

On the other hand I am excited on a new species for me to catch I never seen before and the possibility of new england fish maybe getting respect now a colorful minnow was discovered here (after all, I heard alot that other other states turn up their nose at new england fish and even some new englanders in NANFA hate the native new england fish species).


Lets be careful with this line of thinking... we cannot hate on fish becasue they are not colorful... this is not NeonFishFA... it is NANFA... we are not about a tank full of fish... we are about the fishes of North America... they are our fish... and we love them because they are ours... they fit in their environment, our environement, better than anything else could... I love my Georgia fish becasue they allow me to have a slice of outside in the living room... they let me show my friends and fmaily what cool things are in our streams...
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

#8 Guest_FirstChAoS_*

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Posted 09 February 2011 - 02:20 AM

Lets be careful with this line of thinking... we cannot hate on fish becasue they are not colorful... this is not NeonFishFA... it is NANFA... we are not about a tank full of fish... we are about the fishes of North America... they are our fish... and we love them because they are ours... they fit in their environment, our environement, better than anything else could... I love my Georgia fish becasue they allow me to have a slice of outside in the living room... they let me show my friends and fmaily what cool things are in our streams...



I agree with that whole heartedly. I love tesselated darters, long nose dace, rock bass (though technically not native are long established), and others. I still appreciate my local fish. It just pains me when I talk to people outside of New England who say "new england can never hold a convention as they have no worthwhile fish" or "no one will ever sample their due to low selection of species". Or I meet with collector, find a local species that is new and fascinating to me, and he incredulously is unimpressed as he no longer cares about local species.

#9 Guest_mikez_*

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Posted 09 February 2011 - 01:33 PM

My guess is that it wasn't a NANFA type collector that spread these fish. My guess is that it was likely a bait bucket introduction.


Although I don't have a better suggestion [not even considering the NANFA angle], it is an odd species to find in a bait bucket in northern New Hampshire. Pond minnows that might get caught with some golden or emerald shiners I could understand. A stream fish doesn't make sense. And the natural range is so far away it's hard to imagine a local angler catching his own bait and bringing it that long distance.

I wonder if it was just a one off, or small group, that was dumped the same season as it was collected and will soon disappear. Just like the piranhas, tilapia, gar and other oddballs that are occasionally recorded but never get established.

I personally knew of a population of green sunfish in Massachusetts that reproduced for a few seasons then disappeared, at least so far as my own dipnetting and hook&line angling can determine.

#10 Guest_rjmtx_*

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Posted 09 February 2011 - 04:33 PM

It could've been bait buckets dumped by people who caught their own or, more likely purchased from a store that purchased across watersheds, or even a state agency or individual stocking this or that had some hitch-hikers come along.

Here's a story I heard from Texas: Pirate Perch showed up in the Upper Guadalupe in the Hill Country (far out of their natural range). Turned out that they hitched a ride out there with some channel catfish from East Texas, and were dumped with the cats in the river or an adjacent farm pond.

It happens, unfortunately.

#11 Guest_fundulus_*

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Posted 09 February 2011 - 05:45 PM

I think this is the first time I've heard of any Clinostomus species described as invasive. Like Mike the Z pointed out, the population may fizzle sooner than later anyway.

#12 Guest_brookiechaser_*

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 01:20 PM

I agree with that whole heartedly. I love tesselated darters, long nose dace, rock bass (though technically not native are long established), and others. I still appreciate my local fish. It just pains me when I talk to people outside of New England who say "new england can never hold a convention as they have no worthwhile fish" or "no one will ever sample their due to low selection of species". Or I meet with collector, find a local species that is new and fascinating to me, and he incredulously is unimpressed as he no longer cares about local species.


Maybe some "tourist" anglers caught and brought their own bait from home?

Here in WV there are instances of stream daces being transferred from one watershed to another documented. But, we are a headwater state, so many different watersheds may only be a few miles separated. It makes it much 'easier' to transfer from watershed to watershed, and it seems to happen fairly frequently.

For example, I found phoxinus oreas in a Potomac headwater stream....with its proximity to the Cheat and Greenbrier (Monongahela and New River tributaries, respectively) it wouldn't be crazy that someone collected some bait for trout fishing while in one of those watersheds then dumped them there when they were on their way home.

#13 Guest_rjmtx_*

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 03:09 PM

Yeah, and there are also plenty of people that supply baitshops that often go across watersheds.

#14 Guest_Mike_*

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 03:53 PM

Yeah, and there are also plenty of people that supply baitshops that often go across watersheds.


About 20 years ago I lived in Calumet City IL, and the bait shop I always went to knew I keept native fish so he would save me anything that showed up in his minnows. Over then next 5 years he gave me 1 walleye, 3 white bass, 4 logperch, 1 yellow perch, around a dozzen black & brown bullheads, 1 bluegill, 2 white crappie & 3 rudd. All the fish were native excipt the rudd, where did they come from? He did not know, he said he baught his minnows from commercial bait netters.

I would there for think the introduced fish were from a bait bucket. I can't believe conservationests would do such a thing, & thats what NANFA is.

Edited by Mike, 11 February 2011 - 03:53 PM.


#15 Guest_gerald_*

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 05:05 PM

Betcha there's a parallel thread running on some local fishing forum right now where they're discussing how those rosyside dace must have been released by some sloppy irresponsible aquarium collectors, because fishermen/women would never do such a thing.

Bruce - there's introduced C.funduloides in the Little Tennesee River in SW NC where the undescribed Smoky Dace is native.

#16 Guest_fundulus_*

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 05:16 PM

OK, after I wrote that I thought it's likely to have been introduced somewhere and I just hadn't encountered it yet. Now I have.

#17 Guest_mikez_*

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 05:31 PM

With bait so easy to buy or catch yourself locally, I just can't picture a scenario in which someone collects bait from a fast moving stream 500 miles away.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending anglers and bait bucket dumpers. I'm very well aware how often that happens.
On the other hand, as an angler, I'm very much in tune with what's available out there for bait, whether commercially or collected.

Another way of looking at it, after 3 decades of buying bait, why the heck couldn't I come up with something so cool? Goldfish, green sunfish, crayfish and bullfrog tadpoles are the only thing I get in Ma. where golden shiners are often imported from southern states during winter. In Me. where bait can't be imported, native dace turn up occasionally but that's it.

#18 Guest_wargreen_*

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 09:13 PM

Although I don't have a better suggestion [not even considering the NANFA angle], it is an odd species to find in a bait bucket in northern New Hampshire. Pond minnows that might get caught with some golden or emerald shiners I could understand. A stream fish doesn't make sense. And the natural range is so far away it's hard to imagine a local angler catching his own bait and bringing it that long distance.

I wonder if it was just a one off, or small group, that was dumped the same season as it was collected and will soon disappear. Just like the piranhas, tilapia, gar and other oddballs that are occasionally recorded but never get established.

I personally knew of a population of green sunfish in Massachusetts that reproduced for a few seasons then disappeared, at least so far as my own dipnetting and hook&line angling can determine.



I agree....an angle I havent heard many talk about is that the lake could have been stocked with some minnows (fatheads are stocked around here as forage for Bass)or it could be a Bluegill or another game fish that was stocked while jueviniles and the dace could have just came along for the ride.

#19 Guest_mikez_*

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Posted 12 February 2011 - 09:36 AM

I agree....an angle I havent heard many talk about is that the lake could have been stocked with some minnows (fatheads are stocked around here as forage for Bass)or it could be a Bluegill or another game fish that was stocked while jueviniles and the dace could have just came along for the ride.

I know lts of stuff gets moved around that way, what confuses me is this a species found in [comparitively] fast water streams. None of the species you mentioned would be harvested from that habitat.

Maybe a fish farm where the ponds are near a small brook that flooded?

#20 Guest_mywan_*

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Posted 02 March 2011 - 01:03 AM

When I was a kid our family got together and dug a really decent size pond by hand. It was early spring and by midsummer it had lots of fish, even though none were ever stocked. In questioning this, I was five, my mother told me when she was young it rained fish. They were still alive and even big enough to eat so they collected them for supper. This is a well established and interesting phenomena even though many aspects of it remain enigmatic.

It would seem an overstretch to suppose rosyside dace would be transplanted over hundreds of miles this way. However, about this time last year it rained fish, spangled perch, on an Australian desert town 326 miles from the nearest river, twice in two days, and were still alive when they hit the ground. It also happened to the same town in 2004 and 1974.
http://www.telegraph...ining-fish.html

In fact it is a common occurrence, and certainly far more common for a few fish to be transported unnoticed. This remains a highly unlikely explanation, but any finger pointing will at times result in finger pointing over natural events.

Edited by mywan, 02 March 2011 - 01:04 AM.





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