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Pygmy Collecting


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#1 Guest_James226_*

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Posted 28 March 2011 - 05:56 AM

Hello!
I've been creeping the NANFA forums for a while now and sensing a sleepless night, decided to poke around the pygmy board.

I live in the panhandle, specifically Santa Rosa County, and believe I should be able to find some E. zonatum and/or E. evergladei judging by the locations from this link I gleamed from another topic.

The area I plan on netting in seems to be a slack water off shoot from a small river. I don't know the name but could give you coordinates if anyone cares to know. I've been here before looking for H. Formosa and didn't have any luck. I've since switched locations for Least Killies and have found a new favorite fish (but thats another story). This area, here on I'll call it a swamp, goes on quiet a ways back with an abundance of dead cypress/pines in what amounts to probably waist high to 7 feet of water at the deepest. I didn't go to far in the water but did manage to work my way around the shore to an area heavily grown with aquatic plants around a deeper portion of clear water lacking plants. Not quite sure of the depth near shore but it can't be too deep. Large spiders and cotton mouths aside, I can't see many a better place for pygmies as well as other slack water fish.

So, if anyone has ever collected around this area and to the people with tomes more knowledge on the subject of native collection in general: Should I expect to find any Elassoma if I work the planted area with a dipnet from shore? Or should I set out what amounts to a minnow trap and come back later or the next day?

If it all goes as planned pictures will certainly be had.

Also, Hello first post on the NANFA forums.

#2 Guest_smilingfrog_*

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Posted 28 March 2011 - 07:26 AM

Can't really help with the Elassoma question, but welcome to the forum.

#3 Guest_Dustin_*

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Posted 28 March 2011 - 07:37 AM

I think you would expect to see pygmies in the area you described. I have found that pygmies are more abundant in smaller, somewhat sheltered creeks or swamps with abundant near shore, fine-leaved vegetation. Ditches are perfect. One thing that you need to consider is that pygmies are traditionally annual fish so once they spawn, they die. Around here, the adults have already spawned and died off so the only pygmies we would find are very tiny juveniles if we had the patience to look for such small fish. I'm not sure if this holds true farther south but I would assume it does. If you don't get any, don't be discouraged. Try back in late summer, early fall and they should be there along with fewer snakes and other toothsome creatures...

#4 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 28 March 2011 - 07:42 AM

One thing that you need to consider is that pygmies are traditionally annual fish so once they spawn, they die.

Really? But I thought they had a 5-8 year lifespan.
Sources:
http://diszhal.info/..._evergladei.php
http://theaquariumwi...soma_okefenokee

#5 Guest_Dustin_*

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Posted 28 March 2011 - 07:56 AM

Really? But I thought they had a 5-8 year lifespan.
Sources:
http://diszhal.info/..._evergladei.php
http://theaquariumwi...soma_okefenokee


I didn't see a mention of lifespan in the wiki link but both are aquarium hobbyist links. I am not surprised that pygmies could live to 3 or 4 or I suspect even 5 years in an aquarium if well fed and maintained. I think 8 years is a stretch. I have had them live for 3+ years so I know if can work. In the wild, there are a lot more environmental stresses such as predators, food supply and the constant effort needed to find one and avoid the other. I have seen some live to their second year but they are usually ratty looking and rare. The majority, at least in SC, one live one year.

I remember when I first starting looking around for fish, I wanted to find both boehlkei and okatie, since pygmies are my favorites and these were a challenge. I found both on my first times out which were in December and January. I went back a couple of months later and couldn't find even a hint of either. I was concerned so I contacted some folks and they were not surprised. They told me to check bcak later and when I did, the fish were present in both spots.

#6 Guest_James226_*

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Posted 28 March 2011 - 08:21 AM

Thanks for the replys and the welcome, Frog!

Erica, I read all the posts in your Elassoma odyssey and it's what got me determined to do this, I must say I'm impressed.

As for the possibility of them being annual, Dustin, thanks for bringing it up. If I remember...my last foray into the swamp was around the beginning of my summer two years ago, probably May. So I wouldn't be surprised if that's why I didn't run into anything but G. Affinis, which seems to be a yearly ainstay in every water source in Northern Florida. In anycase I won't be too disapointed, just means more time for some least killies and naps.

On another note, Would a mixture of pool filter sand, flourite black sand, and red laterite be a suitable substrate if I sink some leaves in he hopes of mulm?

#7 Michael Wolfe

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Posted 28 March 2011 - 11:36 AM

I live in the panhandle, specifically Santa Rosa County, and believe I should be able to find some E. zonatum and/or E. evergladei judging by the locations from this link I gleamed from another topic.

The area I plan on netting in seems to be a slack water off shoot from a small river. I don't know the name but could give you coordinates if anyone cares to know.


Checking Google maps for your location and my Florida Collecting Guide it seems that there are several known spots for E. zontaum and at least one ditch that is called out as having E. evergladei and leeches... so you should be able to find some in your area...

...and no big surprise to me that most of those places also contain redfin pickerel... another slack water denizen... which has a direct impact on finding your pygmies way up in the fine leaf vegetation...
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

#8 Guest_gerald_*

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Posted 28 March 2011 - 12:12 PM

In NC, I find adult zonatum in shallows from Feb through May before they disappear. By Sept the young-of-year are a decent size for catching with 1/16-inch or finer net. June to Aug there are some adults left but they're hard to find, and more sensitive to handling stress at higher temp. Of course in FL spring-dominated streams these seasonal trends may be less releveant.

From Walton County FL eastward you should find E.gilberti too.


I didn't see a mention of lifespan in the wiki link but both are aquarium hobbyist links. I am not surprised that pygmies could live to 3 or 4 or I suspect even 5 years in an aquarium if well fed and maintained. I think 8 years is a stretch. I have had them live for 3+ years so I know if can work. In the wild, there are a lot more environmental stresses such as predators, food supply and the constant effort needed to find one and avoid the other. I have seen some live to their second year but they are usually ratty looking and rare. The majority, at least in SC, one live one year.

I remember when I first starting looking around for fish, I wanted to find both boehlkei and okatie, since pygmies are my favorites and these were a challenge. I found both on my first times out which were in December and January. I went back a couple of months later and couldn't find even a hint of either. I was concerned so I contacted some folks and they were not surprised. They told me to check bcak later and when I did, the fish were present in both spots.



#9 Guest_decal_*

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Posted 28 March 2011 - 06:44 PM

I caught 5 adult E. zonatum in February in ditches near a reservoir on the NE side of Houston. It took quite a bit of work and time, but they sporadically came up in the net after passes through plants. Never tried a minnow trap but I bet it wouldn't be too successful.

#10 Guest_James226_*

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Posted 28 March 2011 - 09:38 PM

Hello Michael, gerald, and decal!

Thank you for more hope in capturing some of this genus.
I ended up going out today to the swampy area:
Posted Image
Posted Image

The second picture is the immediate area I put my crappy dip net in. It didn't work out to well as the net didn't bring any vegetation up and it was all alive anyway and I didn't want to tear it to pieces. I caught a few tiny fish that might have been some kind of Elassoma. They were really too hard to identify off hand, so I just released them all. I did dredge up a tiny cray, but he was too cute to keep.

From the first location I moved to where this area drained under the road and into a small creek. In the areas of faster current I found some kind of minnow like fish with red fins and a black lateral line. Its caudal was forked and it looked reminiscent of a top minnow. I'd have pictures but my camera's shutter decided to stop working. I know I've seen a picture of them in my surfing of the forums but I'm having trouble finding them again. Anyway, I released all of them I caught in the hopes that I can go back later tomorrow if they would be suitable for a slackwater tank. In the drainage area I did find a larger number of the small crays, which I brought home and put in the tank I have set up for the future Elassoma. As of now the tank is still settling and the crays are hiding, so as soon as I fix the camera and get a decent picture I'll try to get a positive I.D.

To end the day I went to my usual Heterandria location and brought home 3 rather large females, one or two males, and maybe 10 juvies. The dip net made short work of this and I regret not having one the first time I went looking for H. formosa.

In any case I'll probably go searching again relatively soon, if I can figure out how to work this dipnet correctly or find a more accessible spot.

As far as I know, Gerald, the creeks in the panhandle of Florida aren't usually spring fed. The one I was on is probably an offshoot of the Escambia River system or Blackwater even. If I could get to a spring fed one, it'd probably be closer to central Florida.

Decal, thank you for this insight. It should be raining here in the next few days, which means there'll be more ditches to try!

Michael, you succeeded in making me wish for this book. It will be mine. I think my failure is probably technique based, but if there're pickeral about, maybe i should try just swooping the upper few inches instead of trying to shovel veg out of the water.

Thanks for the help you guys! More to come if I get around to it. Hopefully more pictures and less reading.

#11 Guest_gzeiger_*

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 01:54 AM

I guarantee there are Elassoma at a site that looks like that if you are inside their range. They tend to be a bottom-dwelling fish, even among vegetation, so you may need to scoop deeper, but very shallow water is fine.

Could your minnows be Lucania goodei?

#12 Guest_Newt_*

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 06:11 AM

That looks like good Elassoma habitat to me. I would guess your minnow-like fish were juvenile chubsuckers (Erimyzon sp.). Good luck!

#13 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 09:41 AM

I did find a larger number of the small crays, which I brought home and put in the tank I have set up for the future Elassoma.

The pygmy sunfish cannot benefit from that arrangement. Either the crayfish will eat the blackworms and microfauna that the Elassoma eat or the crayfish will directly eat the Elassoma fry/adults, but either way there is no positive reason to adding crayfish to an Elassoma tank. It's a bad mixture, don't do it. It would be better if you moved those crayfish to a tank with bigger fish that can defend themselves.

#14 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 09:47 AM

I caught a few tiny fish that might have been some kind of Elassoma. They were really too hard to identify off hand, so I just released them all.

This is what a juvenile Elassoma gilberti looks like:
Attached File  juvenile Elassoma gilberti with flash.jpg   127.03KB   4 downloads
http://gallery.nanfa... flash.jpg.html

#15 Michael Wolfe

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 09:54 AM

Agree with everyone that looks like the right habitat... I can practically see em in there in the base of that grass clump in the foreground... just mocking you...

Your shiner description made me think of taillight shiners... another potential slack water inhabitant...

Sounds like your Elassoma technique is a little too delicate... you have to dig in underneath the floating vegetation and lift up the whole wad of plants... turn the wad over in your hand and look for the Elassoma in the plants... they will not willingly come out of their hiding spots... you have to look for them in the weeds... collect the weeds in your dip net (need a strong handled one for this kind of sampling) and then look for fish.

And I have to also be anti-cray... grass shrimp are nice ad mix OK with the Elassoma... but crayfish are just trouble spelled differently.

Oh, and you should definitely buy the book... written and produced by several of our very own NANFAns!
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

#16 Guest_James226_*

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 10:27 AM

Ahh so I guess I've gotta get covered in spiders one more time before the rain gets in. Thanks for the confirmation on that spot. If I can pull any up I'll be sure to get this camera going.

As for the crays, I suppose I should have made my intent with them clear. I'm familiar with them as an aquarium spieces. They're itty bitty and arguably the cutest creatures I've ever seen, but will indeed be moved to a different tank wants my first handfull of java moss takes or I run into some Pygmies.

A few minutes of trolling the pictorial I.D. forum gave me the idea that these moving water fish look alot like the P. euryzonos. Again pictures will be had because they'd look great in my dark water tank.

More to come when I get to it. Thank you guys, a lot, for the information.

#17 Guest_James226_*

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 10:28 AM

I'll also have to stop posting from my phone. No way to edit the auto correcting mistakes from it. Bleh.

#18 Guest_James226_*

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 05:52 PM

I didn't realize Elassoma were so smalll. I think that and the less aggressicve aproach to pulling up plants was why I didn't bring home any yesterday. I had to have captured at least 30. I brought bome around 12males and 18 females.

The spiders were friendly even. Quarter sized wolf spider used my arm as a couch the whole hour I was there.

Thanks you guys, you made all this possible. Without you I'd have given up and moved on a less interesting species.

#19 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 07:33 PM

You can thank us with photos of your tank and new fish :)

#20 Guest_Doug_Dame_*

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 10:58 PM

I didn't realize Elassoma were so small.

Yes, small, if you catch a Evergladei / Okefenokee / Gilberti much over an inch, it's a biggie. (Zonatum are the bruisers of Florida Elassoma, they're often monsters up to 1.75".)

Most of the Elassoma I catch are in water 1" to 6" deep. Ditches that are too shallow for bigger predators are especially good.

Another small but fun fish you may find in your swamp is Leptolucania ommata, the pygmy killifish. Colored up males are electric blue, green, lemon yellow, and brown, and they have that false-eye at the rear; never seen a picture to do them justice. Like Heterandria, you need a small-meshed net to land them, but they are less likely to be in the very shallow water than the Elassoma.

Your minnow-like fish with a black lateral line probably isn't Pt. euryzonus, you're out of the range and all the Pteros like the moving water of creeks. With reddish fins, one oddball possibility would be a bass; at 1" to 2" they seem to be designed by nature to look like minnows at first glance. I've taken a few home and said "Dangit!" (or something like that) when I got a better look and realized what they really were. The chubsucker that Newt suggested is also a good guess, the juvenile lake chubsuckers are very cute and look quite a bit different than the adults; they have very tall, triangular dorsal fin with a distinct black leading edge.

But we'll wait for px !!! That makes ID'ing a mystery fish a lot easier.




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