One of the guys from a salamander website I frequent lost a large chunk of his collection to what he says was a bad batch of blackworms. He said he had the blackworms tested and they had high levels of copper, the salamanders that ate them were dead within 24 hours. I was wondering if anyone had ever heard of anything like this.
Bad batch of blackworms?
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, Apr 25 2011 08:54 PM
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#2
Guest_EricaWieser_*
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Posted 25 April 2011 - 09:06 PM
I am suspicious of that. Copper kills invertebrates (just read some reviews for Mardel's product, Coppersafe™). Copper kills invertebrates in doses far too low to affect fish, so the odds that the blackworms absorbed enough copper to poison the salamander is very unlikely in my opinion. The copper would have killed the blackworms before they could absorb any significant amount.
Maybe salamanders are more susceptible to copper than blackworms are? I don't know, I don't know anything about salamanders.
Maybe the blackworms were dead when they were fed to the salamander? That's possible. Then the amount of copper in them would have nothing to do with how much they can handle when alive.
Maybe biomagnification occurred? How many blackworms did this salamander eat?
Maybe salamanders are more susceptible to copper than blackworms are? I don't know, I don't know anything about salamanders.
Maybe the blackworms were dead when they were fed to the salamander? That's possible. Then the amount of copper in them would have nothing to do with how much they can handle when alive.
Maybe biomagnification occurred? How many blackworms did this salamander eat?
Edited by EricaWieser, 25 April 2011 - 09:18 PM.
#3
Guest_Irate Mormon_*
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Posted 25 April 2011 - 11:54 PM
I think Erica is on point here. The high copper explanation seems suspect to me.
#4
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Posted 26 April 2011 - 11:12 AM
No, but I've seen small fish die within an hour after gorging on whole blackworms, and worms crawling out their gills and mouth. If they slurp up too many worms too fast without chewing them (as cichlids are prone to do), the worms might thrash around and damage their organs or gills. The same could easily happen to salamanders, which slurp and swallow without chewing. Now I always CHOP blackworms on a cutting board before feeding to smaller fish and sals.
That being said, I'd suggest he buy blackworms from an actual blackworm farm, rather than worms harvested as byproducts from gamefish farms or agriculture operations.
That being said, I'd suggest he buy blackworms from an actual blackworm farm, rather than worms harvested as byproducts from gamefish farms or agriculture operations.
Edited by gerald, 26 April 2011 - 11:15 AM.
#5
Guest_Ramiro_*
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Posted 26 April 2011 - 11:35 AM
Ever since I heard about his blackworms having high levels of copper I stopped feeding them to my animals so much, lately I've been talking myself back into them though seeing how blackworms make such good food for many of our captives. I've never really chopped the worms at all, small fish or salamder larvae too small to eat the worms whole usually just nip at them and rip off small pieces at a time, which keeps the rest of the worm alive until it's all eaten.having said that any fish or larvae big enough to gorge on lots of whole worms at a single feeding typically get something else as a staple in their diet such as a good quality pellet. Ill guess ill just keep my fingers crossed and hope I never have anything like that happen to me.
#6
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Posted 26 April 2011 - 11:44 AM
How do we know that a fish has died from eating blackworms if you see some coming out of its mouth after it has died. Couldn't it be that the fish has died from simply eating too much, I'm pretty sure I had a steatocranus tinati die from eating too many salmon pellets once, perhaps he gorged on them and they swelled up in his stomach or something. I hear the same thing with reptiles and mealworms, people insist that you cut the heads off the mealworms because they'll chew their way out citing a bearded dragon they saw with a mealworm eating through it. What's more likely is that the bearded died from simply eating too much undigestible chitin which mealworms have. A hungry worm in the cage probably started eating the dead beardie.
#7
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Posted 26 April 2011 - 11:53 AM
Why would blackworms have high levels of copper? Would they also have, say, elevated levels of nickel, zinc or lead? Or maybe no one knows?
#8
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Posted 26 April 2011 - 12:29 PM
Yeah something else must've been at play here, although how could so many be dead within 24 hours? I don't know of any bacterial or fungal diseases that do that to amphibians within 24 hours, seems more consistent with a poisoning.
#9
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Posted 26 April 2011 - 12:42 PM
I cannot speak for blackworms or salamanders, but if you feed a baby house wren an earthworm that is too big for it it will instantly poop its own intestines 
So the overeating is at least possible and Ramiro ask a good question. Good data is likely hard to come by to because not many people are willing to experiment with killing their pets.
So the overeating is at least possible and Ramiro ask a good question. Good data is likely hard to come by to because not many people are willing to experiment with killing their pets.
#10
Guest_exasperatus2002_*
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Posted 26 April 2011 - 01:44 PM
I used to use blackworms to feed my Discus when I used to keep them, that is till my breeder male died in a driftwood accident. Then I gave the females to my brother & stopped fish keeping for a few years. My only problems I ever encountered were small leeches I had to pick out & once they got hole in the head disease which I was able to catch it early (some say black works & tubifex will give it to them but idk how true that really is). As long as you kept rinsing the worm tray daily, you should have good, lively worms.
Edited by exasperatus2002, 26 April 2011 - 01:46 PM.
#11
Guest_gerald_*
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Posted 26 April 2011 - 02:23 PM
I think the fish deaths I saw were due to physical trauma by live blackworms because I've only seen it happen with whole worms, not chopped worms. But you're right it might just be the volume of food and not the activity of the live worms. Many fish aren't built for biting off pieces, and once a hungry fish starts eating a worm that's too big, it might just keep sucking in the whole thing. Either way, chopping blackworms seems to reduce the risk. BTW, those tiny chopped worm fragments can stay alive for days or weeks.
Copper is added to cattle feed, and ponds receiving feed-lot runoff can accumulate it, or it might be added to kill algae and weeds in farm ponds. No idea whether worms can accumulate enough Cu for acute poisoning of fish or salamanders.
Copper is added to cattle feed, and ponds receiving feed-lot runoff can accumulate it, or it might be added to kill algae and weeds in farm ponds. No idea whether worms can accumulate enough Cu for acute poisoning of fish or salamanders.
How do we know that a fish has died from eating blackworms if you see some coming out of its mouth after it has died. Couldn't it be that the fish has died from simply eating too much, I'm pretty sure I had a steatocranus tinati die from eating too many salmon pellets once, perhaps he gorged on them and they swelled up in his stomach or something.
#12
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Posted 26 April 2011 - 02:43 PM
a necropsy can be done to examine the digestive system to see if a worm managed to bore out & into the body cavity to avoid the digestive fluids. Beyond that, I cant think of anything else you can do to see.
#13
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Posted 26 April 2011 - 02:44 PM
I'm skeptical that the thrashing of a blackworm could cause any serious injury. Especially after watching fish eat several live crayfish.
#14
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Posted 26 April 2011 - 05:05 PM
Back to the copper theory the amount of copper being processed by the salamander can be a lot higher than the copper content of any given worm. The liver is the first to process it but the thyroid is most sensitive, at least in people. Hence the copper might get significantly concentrated at a single point in time in a particular location if it is from a single heavy meal. This would explain concentrations well exceeding the concentration of the supply via worms.
I cannot speak for a particular case, but if this theory in some cases has some level of validity merely pacing the consumption of the same number of worms over many hours should prevent death. It would not explain the live worms as digestion must be underway for this method of short term concentration to occur. The 24 hour death is more in line with expectations but should result in a major metabolic slowdown well before death.
I cannot speak for a particular case, but if this theory in some cases has some level of validity merely pacing the consumption of the same number of worms over many hours should prevent death. It would not explain the live worms as digestion must be underway for this method of short term concentration to occur. The 24 hour death is more in line with expectations but should result in a major metabolic slowdown well before death.
#15
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Posted 22 December 2011 - 03:43 PM
Sometimes pet shops get tubifex worms and sell them as black worms. Tubifex worms in my experience only lead to trouble.
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