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1 gallon nano


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#1 Guest_beanosvaughn_*

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Posted 24 July 2011 - 02:43 PM

I was wondering if any natives would work in a 1 gallon tank?I found one with a filter,lights and everything else for way cheap.I already asked about a 5 gallon but from 5 gallons to one gallons seems like a big difference to me. Would a couple killifish or gambusia work?

#2 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 24 July 2011 - 07:13 PM

Pygmy sunfish, the Elassoma genus, are all an inch long or smaller. Leptolucania ommata and Heterandria formosa are also tiny.

The question is, can your 1 gallon aquarium support a continuous nitrogen cycle, or would the fish in it be exposed to periodic nonzero concentrations of ammonia? It would be better to set the tank up first and see if it's stable before adding fish. Feed it fish flakes as if there were a fish in there, and measure the levels of ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate. If you can, after seeing the ammonia and nitrite levels rise and then fall back to zero, keep them at zero, then your tank is cycled. But if the water changes necessary to reduce the constantly increasing nitrate levels also cause the ammonia and nitrite to spike, then the tank is not cycled. At that point you'd want to go with some sort of anabantoid, which will be able to get oxygen from the air after its gills get burned out from ammonia exposure.

More info: http://www.fishkeepi...ing-article.htm look at the graphs

Edited by EricaWieser, 24 July 2011 - 07:15 PM.


#3 Guest_beanosvaughn_*

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Posted 24 July 2011 - 08:42 PM

I actually already cycled it in the way you mentioned.it has an under gravel filter so I should get some good bacteria growth.

#4 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 26 July 2011 - 12:06 AM

I was wondering if any natives would work in a 1 gallon tank?

What is your definition of "work"? Do you mean would the fish survive to the end of its natural life span? Or do you mean would the fish breed?

#5 Guest_MichiJim_*

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Posted 26 July 2011 - 10:18 AM

I have used such a small tank with native fish before, and it works with adequate filtration, water changes and appropriate species. Something small, obviously. I managed to get away with a trio (1 male, 2 female) brook stickleback, but I know of others that have aggression problems with those fish. I wound up moving them to a larger tank anyway to create a more complete habitat.

It takes a lot more work with a small tank, especially before its fully cycled. Don't fall behind on water changes.

It would be better to go larger, though. You are dancing on a head of pin with such a small space. Its not just water volume, but surface and bottom areas. Fish don't live in water, they live in aquatic habitats.

Also, do people really use a gourami to cycle a tank? There are other, less cruel, ways to do it. Just because they can use atmospheric oxygen doesn't mean its ok to donate their gills. They need those too. It seems unnecessary. The tank will get there - be patient.

#6 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 26 July 2011 - 10:32 AM

Also, do people really use a gourami to cycle a tank? There are other, less cruel, ways to do it. Just because they can use atmospheric oxygen doesn't mean its ok to donate their gills. They need those too. It seems unnecessary. The tank will get there - be patient.

Anabantoids like bettas and gouramis can live in those 1 gallon bowls, yes. My mom has had a betta in a little one gallon or less bowl for five years now. At first I was like, "Don't do that, it's cruel" but we bought bettas at the same time. Mine went into a 55 gallon heated community tank, where its metabolism ran faster because of the heat and because of the constant swimming and social interactions. It's dead now. Hers, sitting in one spot all day, cold and infrequently eating, is still alive a half decade later. They can survive without any gill function at all, it seems, or at least hers is doing that. It props itself up on a silk plant laying near the surface, gulping air when it needs it and food when it's there, and that's its life.

That's why I asked about what what "works" means. You can keep a betta alive for 5 years in a 1 gallon tank, sure. You could keep an anabantoid alive in a drinking glass. But is that creature an entertaining fish? Is it happy? I'm sure that an Elassoma species or Heterandria formosa or Leptolucania ommata can be kept alive in a 1 gallon volume of water as long as it stayed cycled. But I don't keep a fish unless I can breed it, nowadays. The Elassoma gilberti I had I initially put in a 10 gallon tank, rich with plant life and both genders of the fish. They bred, and their babies grew up into healthy adults. That's what I consider a full life for a fish, the ability to live out their natural life span and the ability to breed. Keep in mind adult Elassoma have a 1-2 year life span, so if you're not breeding them you're not going to have them in the future.

The question is, do Elassoma babies have enough space to grow up in a 1 gallon tank? I have the sneaking suspicion that one male and one or two females might just spawn in a 1 gallon tank. Would their babies have enough room to grow up, though? I don't know. I've never tried it. And what would you do with those juveniles once they grew up? Would you have enough space in 1 gallon for a breeding colony?


Honestly, I think it might work with Elassoma. They're just so tiny.
Here are scaled photos of a male and female Elassoma gilberti:
http://gallery.nanfa...mber 2.jpg.html
http://gallery.nanfa... photo.jpg.html

That's why I think you might get away with a breeding colony of Elassoma in a 1 gallon tank; the fish max out at less than an inch or around an inch in length. They're so tiny, and in the wild they live in such densely packed colonies. If you protected the babies, had some plant cover or something, and kept the water ammonia free, then I think this just might work. Start with one male Elassoma and one to two females and see if they breed within the first month or two. They should breed if fed either live or frozen blackworms or bloodworms.
If you don't see any fry by the end of month three, it's probably not going to work. That means the male doesn't have enough space to chase the females away from the eggs, or the fry aren't able to sufficiently hide from the adults. Adult Elassoma don't normally eat fry of any fish, but they just might if it sits on their nose and presents them with an unnatural, super-dense-population opportunity.
If you do see babies, feed them live microworms.

P.S.
Undergravel filters suck eggs in and destroy them. An alternative way to get rid of ammonia would be to use growing live plants. Or you can use a sponge filter (an air stone with a sponge on the end); the babies won't get sucked up in that. A waterfall, hang-on-back filter will probably be too large for a 1 gallon tank, but if you find one, cover the intake tube with a finely pored sponge.
Elassoma eggs usually need sand, soil, or a kitty litter substrate, not gravel. If you have gravel the eggs get stuck in the interstitial points between the rocks and the fry survival rate drops way down.

Edited by EricaWieser, 26 July 2011 - 10:56 AM.


#7 Guest_dafrimpster_*

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Posted 26 July 2011 - 02:18 PM

I would go with Heterandria Formosa and lots of live plants.

#8 Guest_MichiJim_*

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Posted 26 July 2011 - 04:27 PM

Erica,

I diverged from the question that the original poster asked - can a 1 gallon nano be used for native fish. I believe he has been answered by a couple of responses that yes, it is possible.

My other comment regarding the use of a gourami to cycle a tank was off topic and not really useful, except that I have concerns about giving advice that would be harmful to a fish to someone new to the hobby. And I still strongly believe that is the case. Anabantoid fish have the ability to utilize atmospheric oxygen to supplement the oxygen they take in from their watery surroundings, but that does not mean their gills are not necessary. They still need them for respiration as well as other uses, such as osmotic regulation and removing metabolites from their system.

I read your recount of your bettas, and I am not surprised at the differing outcomes for the two fish. Bettas, especially the highly interbred examples prevalent in the aquarium trades, are not really suited to a community aquarium. Because of their long fins, the are slow swimmers and become easy targets for the quicker fish, which is really everyone else. And competing for food is tougher. The higher temperatures are OK, they originally came from Thailand, so water temps in the 80's are within their comfort range. My daughter has one in her dorm room. She wanted some guppies to keep with it, but I gave her a snail instead. Not as flashy, but even guppies will harass a betta to an early grave.

But I digress again. My point was that using a gourami to cycle a tank because it can live with ruined gills is not something we should be promoting on this forum. Some gouramis are tough little fish and may be good for this purpose, but not because they can live without functional gills.

#9 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 26 July 2011 - 07:40 PM

I read your recount of your bettas, and I am not surprised at the differing outcomes for the two fish. Bettas, especially the highly interbred examples prevalent in the aquarium trades, are not really suited to a community aquarium. Because of their long fins, the are slow swimmers and become easy targets for the quicker fish, which is really everyone else. And competing for food is tougher.

*sigh* Trust me, the betta lived just fine in its community tank. Its fins weren't nipped, it got plenty of food, it was never bothered by other fish, nor did it bother them. The fish it lived with were very well fed swordtails, Xiphophorus hellerii, and the ignoring of each other was mutual on both sides.

I never suggested that the betta be used to cycle tanks, nor that their gills be burned out on purpose. I'm simply saying that if you look at the real life circumstances and compare the lifespan of a betta in a one gallon bowl to a betta living at 80 degrees, constantly moving and exercising, the betta in the bowl lives longer. Warmer temperatures and constant activity wears the betta out. My betta ate more food than my mom's betta, it grew faster and aged faster, and it died sooner. Hers is still alive, sitting on its little silk plant at the surface of the water. Their metabolisms were entirely different, which lead to their lifespans being dramatically different.

A betta lives a perfectly fine life in a 1 gallon tank, provided that the tank is kept clean. I fought against it for years because 1 gallon bowls reminded me of those gross, smelly, food-rotten bowls that people who wish they didn't have a fish keep. But beanosvaughn is referring to a cycled 1 gallon tank, complete with an undergravel filter and the level of caring of someone who bothered to ask on a fish forum about it. Thus suggesting an anabantoid is not bad advice. A betta would live a long life in that 1 gallon aquarium.

#10 Guest_beanosvaughn_*

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 06:48 PM

I have used such a small tank with native fish before, and it works with adequate filtration, water changes and appropriate species. Something small, obviously. I managed to get away with a trio (1 male, 2 female) brook stickleback, but I know of others that have aggression problems with those fish. I wound up moving them to a larger tank anyway to create a more complete habitat.

It takes a lot more work with a small tank, especially before its fully cycled. Don't fall behind on water changes.

It would be better to go larger, though. You are dancing on a head of pin with such a small space. Its not just water volume, but surface and bottom areas. Fish don't live in water, they live in aquatic habitats.

Also, do people really use a gourami to cycle a tank? There are other, less cruel, ways to do it. Just because they can use atmospheric oxygen doesn't mean its ok to donate their gills. They need those too. It seems unnecessary. The tank will get there - be patient.






If you were able to use this size tank with brook stickleback do you think I could do a similar set up with Gambusia?From my understanding they have similar sizes and temperments.Another thing that would make Mosquitofish good is the fact that they are livebearers so I wouldn't have to worry about eggs being sucked into the filter.I also have plenty of plants for the fry to hide in.The reason I would like Gambusia is that I can easily collect them,however if they wouldn't work I could always order some Least Killifish or some Elassoma.

#11 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 11:39 PM

Gambusia grow to two and a half or three inches long, nearly three times the length of the pygmy species we've been discussing (Elassoma sp., L. ommata, H. formosa). If you're aiming for a small livebearer, you'd be better off choosing Heterandria formosa.

Edited by EricaWieser, 27 July 2011 - 11:42 PM.


#12 Guest_nativeplanter_*

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 07:25 AM

I am particularly fond of Heterandria myself. I think they really lend themselves well to small setups, because they can be sort of visually lost in larger settings. A small setup encourages one to get up close, and then you notice the nice black-and-white contrast and red highlights. With a few plants, I think a small nunmber could be happy in a 1-gallon setup.

#13 Guest_Doug_Dame_*

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 09:01 PM

I am particularly fond of Heterandria myself. I think they really lend themselves well to small setups, because they can be sort of visually lost in larger settings. A small setup encourages one to get up close, and then you notice the nice black-and-white contrast and red highlights. With a few plants, I think a small nunmber could be happy in a 1-gallon setup.

Heterandria formosa REALLY look great under incandescent light. Makes the gold glow.

#14 Guest_beanosvaughn_*

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 01:27 PM

Does anyone know where I could get some Least killfish or Elassoma?

#15 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 02:31 PM

You live in Utah? Well, you could buy some Heterandria formosa off of aquabid. Here is the US Natives section of the website: http://www.aquabid.c....cgi?fwusnative It looks like there are Everglades pymgy sunfish up for sale on aquabid right now, too. If you want a different type of Elassoma, there are three species available at Sachs Aquaculture: http://www.aquacultu...ml#pygmysunfish

Edited by EricaWieser, 29 July 2011 - 02:32 PM.


#16 Guest_beanosvaughn_*

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Posted 01 August 2011 - 08:58 AM

I looked at the pygmy sunfish and the killfish and decided that I like the everglades pygmy sunfish the best.I will be ordering it soon.

#17 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 01 August 2011 - 11:08 AM

Mkay. Personally, I'd go for the okefenokee that's for sale on Sach's aquaculture. I've got Elassoma gilberti, a close relative to okefenokee, and they get really colorful sometimes.

I probably shouldn't say that, though. Being pushy about what fish to like and all that. So here's a picture instead:
Elassoma gilberti: http://gallery.nanfa...resize.jpg.html

Edited by EricaWieser, 01 August 2011 - 11:08 AM.


#18 Guest_wargreen_*

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Posted 02 August 2011 - 07:42 PM

Does anyone know where I could get some Least killfish or Elassoma?



Zimmermans fish and Jonahs aquarium both have least Killifish for sale.

#19 Guest_Irate Mormon_*

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 11:38 PM

Personally I love H. formosa for small aquaria. I love them in general actually.

#20 Guest_gzeiger_*

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 07:36 AM

I think you'd find H. formosa very entertaining. I do like Elassoma a lot, but let's be honest - they like to hide a lot and mostly just sit there anyway. You won't see them leave the bottom of the tanke much.



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