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considering sunfish for new aquarium

Started by Guest_Tuco_* , Aug 25 2011 01:52 AM

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#1 Guest_Tuco_*

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Posted 25 August 2011 - 01:52 AM

I've kept mbuna for a few years and am considering local sunfish for a 125 gallon I will be acquiring from a coworker. I'm considering larger Lepomis sp.

I regularly catch bluegill, redbreast, and redear at my main fishing spots. I'm sure I could find other species around here (northern IL) but I usually don't target panfish.

Would my malaysian trumpet snails be safe around them? I know mbuna and loaches can't eat them. I've read that the redear sunfish is a snail specialist, but what about the others? Bluegill, pumpkinseed, green, or longear, for instance.

I've had experience with aggressive fish before, I'm planning on starting with more than I plan on keeping as adults and trying to get a stable community (6-7 in a 125g?) from there.

Could I have live plants with these fish? I was considering anacharis since it can be replanted and maybe some anubias and/or java fern on the driftwood. Are there any native plants that are just as easy and can be grown low tech? I'm getting lights off a friend and will have 1.25 wpg of t5.

#2 Guest_FirstChAoS_*

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Posted 25 August 2011 - 02:08 AM

Would my malaysian trumpet snails be safe around them? I know mbuna and loaches can't eat them. I've read that the redear sunfish is a snail specialist, but what about the others? Bluegill, pumpkinseed, green, or longear, for instance.

Not sure of the other species but I have heard of pumpkinseeds eating snails from several sources. In fact a quick search revealed this.

My link

#3 Guest_nativeplanter_*

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Posted 25 August 2011 - 06:42 AM

Could I have live plants with these fish? I was considering anacharis since it can be replanted and maybe some anubias and/or java fern on the driftwood. Are there any native plants that are just as easy and can be grown low tech? I'm getting lights off a friend and will have 1.25 wpg of t5.

You certainly can have live plants with sunfish and they do well with low-tech setups. I'm not sure how bright T5s are, but for a tank the size of yours I would recommend Echinodorus cordifolius, Valisneria americana, Sagittaria subulata (shorter - for the front), and Elodea canadensis (looks similar to Anacharis, but less dense) as easy starters. Or, you could plant a water lily - Nymphoides aquatica (banana plant), with the understanding that it will shade the bottom. If you have good lighting, then the options increase. I prefer a soil substrate; search the forums for soil and you will see a number of good threads. To get nice-looking plants, you do not need to add CO2 or "dose" as high-tech plant people tend to do. Some people like cat litter as a substrate, but I have tried it and find that I like soil better. You can find posts on that as well if you do a search.

I think you are bound to have a lot of fun with your new setup!

#4 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 25 August 2011 - 07:56 AM

Some people like cat litter as a substrate, but I have tried it and find that I like soil better. You can find posts on that as well if you do a search.

*nods* I'm one of those who uses Special Kitty® brand cat litter by Walmart and am a huge fan. Here's why: http://www.thekrib.c...rate-jamie.html

I'd like to add to the plant list Cabomba caroliniana, a species from the east coast that is very pretty, and Fissidens fontanus, a native aquatic moss that is fluffy looking.

Edited by EricaWieser, 25 August 2011 - 07:56 AM.

#5 Guest_NVCichlids_*

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Posted 25 August 2011 - 08:37 AM

Would my malaysian trumpet snails be safe around them? I know mbuna and loaches can't eat them. I've read that the redear sunfish is a snail specialist, but what about the others? Bluegill, pumpkinseed, green, or longear, for instance.

Hmm loaches NOT eating MTS?? that is a new one, most loaches will destroy a tankful of MTS in a week. I had a 75 gallon that the sides would be COVERED in MTS at night. I bought a sinle 3" clown loach and after a week, no more snails.

As far as sunfish, I believe all of them eat snails. Even elassoma (the pygmy sunfish) eat snails. If you are really worried about your snail population, set up a 20 gallon L underneath and just keep that running. No light needed, just filtration and feeding will keep the population booming.

#6 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 25 August 2011 - 08:59 AM

As far as sunfish, I believe all of them eat snails. Even elassoma (the pygmy sunfish) eat snails.

Lol, oh yes, pygmy sunfish are just deadly to snails.
Image of fully grown Elassoma gilberti next to not-fully-grown ramshorn snail: http://gallery.nanfa... with snail.jpg
They can really only fit the babies in their mouths, right when they are emerging from the egg case.

The book FirstChAos linked to above said that pumpkinseeds have a survival advantage over bluegill because of their ability to eat snails. So you see it varies by species how well sunfish can consume snails.

Edited by EricaWieser, 25 August 2011 - 09:03 AM.

#7 Guest_nativeplanter_*

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Posted 25 August 2011 - 09:01 AM

I'd like to add to the plant list Cabomba caroliniana, a species from the east coast that is very pretty, and Fissidens fontanus, a native aquatic moss that is fluffy looking.

Cabomba is indeed lovely, but it is a bit brittle and I'm not sure if sunfish would mangle it? Some people also have a hard time establishing it, so if you are new to plants I might not suggest this one at first. But yes, when it grows well it is extraordinarily attractive.

Fissidens is very nice and low maintenance, but it grows really slowly. Harder to find, and more expensive as a result.

#8 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 25 August 2011 - 09:08 AM

Cabomba is indeed lovely, but it is a bit brittle and I'm not sure if sunfish would mangle it? Some people also have a hard time establishing it, so if you are new to plants I might not suggest this one at first. But yes, when it grows well it is extraordinarily attractive.

Fissidens is very nice and low maintenance, but it grows really slowly. Harder to find, and more expensive as a result.

Both of these are valid concerns. I've bought and completely wiped out Cabomba twice. Yes, it can be very brittle.

Fissidens is a slow grower, yes, this is true. It's getting less expensive as more sellers are available, things like aquabid.com and so forth. If you see it at a reasonable price you can bid on it.

#9 Guest_Tuco_*

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Posted 25 August 2011 - 11:59 AM

I haven't grown live plants before so please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that you weren't supposed to have a nutrient rich substrate with fish that dig. If they dig, a lot of nutrients from the soil will end up in the water and you will have an algal bloom. I was planning on going with plain gravel but if I don't have to that would be great as it would really open up my plant possibilities.

As far as the snails... I thought I read once that mts have exceptionally hard shells and most fish won't eat them unless you have a puffer on something. I'll find a link to post when I get home.

Thanks for the replies so far. This should be a really neat tank if it happens.

#10 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 25 August 2011 - 12:06 PM

I haven't grown live plants before so please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that you weren't supposed to have a nutrient rich substrate with fish that dig. If they dig, a lot of nutrients from the soil will end up in the water and you will have an algal bloom. I was planning on going with plain gravel but if I don't have to that would be great as it would really open up my plant possibilities.

It's true that soil and kitty litter can cloud your water if they're constantly being dug up. You can cap the nutrient-rich substrate with something else, like gravel. Or you can put your plant roots into a terra cotta pot and then bury the pot into your main substrate. But different species of sunfish dig different amounts, so that may not even be an issue.

Edited by EricaWieser, 25 August 2011 - 12:07 PM.

#11 Guest_nativeplanter_*

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Posted 25 August 2011 - 12:28 PM

I've kept longears with a soil substrate capped with gravel. They did not try to build nests. But I have not kept other sunfish.

#12 Guest_MichiJim_*

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 09:33 AM

I have both o-spots and northern longears, and in general they are not a problem for plants. That said, the o-spots just trashed the cabomba I had. Also, both species build nests on a regular basis and will go quite deep.

I have tried kitty litter, but I can't say I am a fan. I need to take down the 180 soon to put in new carpet in the living room, so I was going to try soil under gravel next time. I'll check back for advice when I get there. Not a project I look forward to.

#13 Guest_dmarkley_*

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 11:27 AM

I haven't grown live plants before so please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that you weren't supposed to have a nutrient rich substrate with fish that dig. If they dig, a lot of nutrients from the soil will end up in the water and you will have an algal bloom. I was planning on going with plain gravel but if I don't have to that would be great as it would really open up my plant possibilities.

As far as the snails... I thought I read once that mts have exceptionally hard shells and most fish won't eat them unless you have a puffer on something. I'll find a link to post when I get home.

Thanks for the replies so far. This should be a really neat tank if it happens.

I can tell you authoritatively that Pumpkinseeds can and do eat MTS.

#14 Guest_Tuco_*

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 04:19 PM

I have sand in my cichlid tank so I've always considered mts an asset.
I think I'm going to go with plain gravel. I don't feel confortable using soil with digging fish and no little inverts to aerate it.

#15 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 04:34 PM

I think I'm going to go with plain gravel. I don't feel confortable using soil with digging fish and no little inverts to aerate it.

You don't need aeration with kitty litter...
Picture of my tank with pure kitty litter substrate: http://gallery.nanfa...ageViewsIndex=1

Edited by EricaWieser, 26 August 2011 - 04:36 PM.

#16 Michael Wolfe

Board of Directors

North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 26 August 2011 - 08:48 PM

I have sand in my cichlid tank so I've always considered mts an asset.
I think I'm going to go with plain gravel. I don't feel confortable using soil with digging fish and no little inverts to aerate it.

Deep soil substrates are something different to think about... but don't worry about aeration of the soil... I have several deep soil tanks with live plants and there has never been a problem. There are a lot of other small guys in the soil... you are not just looking at snails.

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

#17 Guest_Tuco_*

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Posted 27 August 2011 - 08:09 PM

But what if a big bluegill decides to make himself a nest in my deep soil substrate? Will this cause a nutrient spike in the water? Could enough dirt get suspended in the water to clog a filter?

Another plant question: for lights, I will be aquiring two 36" 2x39w t5 fixtures (6' long tank) from a friends reef tank (he was using both on a 3' tank and replaced them with a 6 bulb fixture). This comes to 1.25 wpg. Of course the wpg scale was made for t12s, and 156 watts of t5 is quite a bit more light. Is this too much light to use without added co2?

#18 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 27 August 2011 - 08:32 PM

But what if a big bluegill decides to make himself a nest in my deep soil substrate? Will this cause a nutrient spike in the water? Could enough dirt get suspended in the water to clog a filter?

If you use dirt, then yeah, bad things happen if it gets suspended in the water column. You can have nutrient spikes and algae blooms. I'm going through that myself right now with a little 'volcano' effect, where the soil underneath rots, bubbles up, and ruins the water quality and my day.

But if you have pure kitty litter, then the only thing that will happen if it gets suspended in the water column is that it's dusty for a few hours.

As to your lights, I'm no expert. You can ask nativeplanter or the Aquatic Gardener's Association: http://forum.aquatic-gardeners.org/
My response would be simply that I like bright lights and I use this light. Link: http://www.homedepot...catalogId=10053
"Lithonia Lighting All Weather 4 Ft. 2 Light T8 Fluorescent Unit Shop light" It uses two 32 watt T8 bulbs. I like it a lot. It cost $20.
Aim for bulbs with peaks in the blue and red regions of the spectrum. Plants like that.

Edited by EricaWieser, 27 August 2011 - 08:34 PM.

#19 Michael Wolfe

Board of Directors

North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 28 August 2011 - 06:52 AM

I'm going to disagree with Erica on the dirt thing... no, there is no reason that digging up the dirt will cause anything terrible... It all depends on the dirt you are using. If you use natural, shovel full of dirt out of your backyard, you very likely will not have the kind of problem she is having (the substrate that she chose is very high in nutrients including chicken feces and a lot of non-decomposed wood). If, like many of us in the south, your natural soil has a significant clay content, then all the better.

Now, can it clog a filter, sure... and certainly your gravel solution will not do that... but plants can't really pull any food out of gravel, so you cannot really sustain the plants that way.

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

#20 Guest_nativeplanter_*

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Posted 29 August 2011 - 07:30 AM

I'm going to disagree with Erica on the dirt thing... no, there is no reason that digging up the dirt will cause anything terrible... It all depends on the dirt you are using. If you use natural, shovel full of dirt out of your backyard, you very likely will not have the kind of problem she is having (the substrate that she chose is very high in nutrients including chicken feces and a lot of non-decomposed wood). If, like many of us in the south, your natural soil has a significant clay content, then all the better.

Now, can it clog a filter, sure... and certainly your gravel solution will not do that... but plants can't really pull any food out of gravel, so you cannot really sustain the plants that way.

Michael is exactly right - Erica, the product you used is not soil (as I've said before)!! It is sphagnum peat, bark, and poultry litter. Not a stitch of soil in it anywhere. I'm sorry it isn't working well for you, but let's not misguide folks. What you are experiencing isn't from soil, it's from decomposing poultry litter.