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Crayfish and/or US fish tank thoughts

Started by Guest_StygianSteel_* , Aug 31 2011 12:19 PM

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#1 Guest_StygianSteel_*

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 12:19 PM

Hey all. So me and the wife have been talking about setting up a new aquarium. I currently have a tropical community tank and a betta and friends sort of setup (20 gallon & 10 gallon respectively) in both our upstairs rooms so I'm not new to aquariums, but I am new to natives.

What I'm thinking of doing is setting up a larger tank downstairs in my living room (size is negotiable at this point, but I'm thinking a 30 or 33 gallon maybe). A practical concern is that I need something that's not fussy about temperature. Let's say my wife is 'frugal'

and doesn't like to heat nor air condition the downstairs when not in use (which isn't often). So the temps don't exactly stay room temperature and I'm sure will cause some temp fluctuation. I've been researching fish from around here (US/Connecticut) thinking perhaps they'd be a little more accepting of changing temps. This could be buffered, so to speak, with a heater if needed, but the heaters are based on room temp for the most part and I'm sure it would change seasonally a bit.

So with that preamble out of the way, there are two things that have caught my eye. Crayfish and Sunfish. I'm just looking for some opinions/ideas really.

One question that comes to mind is if I was going to go with a Crayfish is there anything that you think would make a good tankmate that would not either be eaten or be the eater of the cray? Particularly any type of Sunfish that you all think might coexist (dwarfs/pygmys/anything). I'm leaning towards the Cray because they are super hardy and rather interesting, but I also find Sunfish quite beautiful. I've been attracted to those ever since I saw some in a local lake (Greens). Another I've been eyeing in particular and have seen for sale is the Dollar Sunfish.

So what do you all think? Go with the Cray alone, Cray with fish, Sunfish? All your thoughts are welcome.

#2 Michael Wolfe

Board of Directors

North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 31 August 2011 - 01:31 PM

So what do you all think? Go with the Cray alone, Cray with fish, Sunfish? All your thoughts are welcome.

If you choose crayfish, then I will tell you my experience is that they eat everybody... I usually keep darters, shiners, chubs, and other smaller stream fishes... and the crays are a terror... I get why people like them, but they are just not good neighbors.

I dont have a ton of experience with Sunfish (many others here have more) but I would think that you would be able to do fine with some sunfish in the situation you described.

If you dont mind me offering another option... If I were in your situation, I might consider another approach. What about some of the fish from the southern US that are used to the higher temps? Many of these are quite nice looking, would do well in a 40 gallon tank, and would require no heater and yet stand up quite nicely to your temperature fluctuation. Topminnows such as Fundulus chrysotus, F. cingulatus, etc. would do quite well in such a setup. And you might be able to keep a few hardy swamp darters as well. And I beleive you could keep an Enneacanthus sunfish... Bandeds are rather tough in my experience and a densely planted 40 gallons with a handful of Banded Sunfish and a few topminnows woudl be a great looking tank!

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

#3 Guest_Uland_*

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 02:42 PM

I think it was Martin who said something along the lines...When crayfish aren't trying to escape, they're eating fish in your tank. Once they've eaten enough fish, they'll molt so the remaining fish can eat them. If I'm mixing up Martin with another or I've butchered the gist of the comment, I apologize in advance. But really, crayfish are escape artists and no amount of food seems to keep them from eating or just killing every tankmate.

On a side, you will not need a heater for any NA native fish even with fluctuations. If you go on vacation in January and set your thermostat to keep you pipes from freezing, you'll be fine.

#4 Guest_StygianSteel_*

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 02:56 PM

Thanks for the input guys. I'm aware of the difficulties of keeping Crays and fish together. I've also read there are some exceptions to that rule though and those exceptions are what I was curious about. Particularly, any species combos that people have experience with working. Also simply which would handle the conditions I mentioned better (Crays v Sunfish).

I have heard that it's the more common Crays (Procambarus Alleni, Procambarus Clarkii) that are the most aggressive towards fish where as Orconectes Lancifer reaches about 3" and is relatively peaceful to fish. I've also heard Dwarf Cajun Crays (Cambarellus shulfedtii) can be kept with fish provided the fish don't eat them. Those do present their own issues though. The Dwarf Cajuns size and liking it hot and the Lancifer's rarity in being sold could be problems.

Uland - Good to know I can get away without a heater. I'd like to avoid that if possible. Mostly because I think it'll struggle to keep up and create wilder temperature fluctuations than just the room would.

Michael Wolfe - Thanks for the input and option #3. Do you think a more Southern community would do Ok in the colder months of CT? That is my worry there. CT doesn't encounter too much extreme heat so I'm less worried about the hot than the cold. The house tends to stay cooler than the outside anyways. I think I'm leaning away from a community and more to a single larger fish (Sunfish) or a Cray with Something that can coexist (if possible), but your idea does give me something else to think about. I will say I do like topminnows (particularly golden ones, which you mentioned).

#5 Michael Wolfe

Board of Directors

North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 31 August 2011 - 03:01 PM

Michael Wolfe - Thanks for the input and option #3. Do you think a more Southern community would do Ok in the colder months of CT? That is my worry there. CT doesn't encounter too much extreme heat so I'm less worried about the hot than the cold. The house tends to stay cooler than the outside anyways. I think I'm leaning away from a community and more to a single larger fish (Sunfish) or a Cray with Something that can coexist (if possible), but your idea does give me something else to think about. I will say I do like topminnows (particularly golden ones, which you mentioned).

Yes, all the Southern fish I mentioned will not care how cold your house is... I mean you are going to have it over 55 right? I know y'all like your cold up there (you can have it), but you are not talking about an unheated garage or something... it is still aprt of you house, right? And if by 'downstairs', you mean basement then your fish will also be fine.

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

#6 Guest_StygianSteel_*

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 03:05 PM

Yes, all the Southern fish I mentioned will not care how cold your house is... I mean you are going to have it over 55 right? I know y'all like your cold up there (you can have it), but you are not talking about an unheated garage or something... it is still aprt of you house, right? And if by 'downstairs', you mean basement then your fish will also be fine.

It's a part of the house on the ground floor. We just tend to not use that room much and it stays largely unheated. We spend most of our time in the upstairs rooms. There is a thermostat downstairs and I'd say it doesn't dip below 50. That's something of a guess since I haven't paid that much attention in the past.

#7 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 04:15 PM

I've got a question for crayfish keepers: Can crayfish eat minnows? Like, exterminate a whole group of them? Because I was just thinking they're fast, they swim in groups, and I can't really tell the different between individuals. So couldn't you just restock them once a year or so if the crayfish nibbles a couple? Just a thought; I've never kept crayfish. My Mom's friend had one in a tank in her basement and found it upstairs one day and ever since then I've not wanted one.

I will try to address your original question:

One question that comes to mind is if I was going to go with a Crayfish is there anything that you think would make a good tankmate that would not either be eaten or be the eater of the cray? Particularly any type of Sunfish that you all think might coexist (dwarfs/pygmys/anything).

No, do not put pygmy sunfish in there with a crayfish. Here's why:
http://gallery.nanfa... photo.jpg.html and http://gallery.nanfa...mber 3.jpg.html Those are adults. That scale is an inch. They also move slowly and spend most of their time on the bottom. Yummy, says the crayfish.

Edited by EricaWieser, 31 August 2011 - 04:16 PM.

#8 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 04:21 PM

Have you considered shrimp instead of crayfish? There are pages and pages of invertebrates for sale on aquabid.com and some of them are quite peaceful. Link: http://www.aquabid.c...n.cgi?fwinverts

Someone on there is selling dwarf shufeldtii crayfish, which they claim grow to only 1.25 inches and don't harm fish.

Edited by EricaWieser, 31 August 2011 - 04:22 PM.

#9 Guest_frogwhacker_*

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 06:15 PM

I have a crawdad living with my longear sunfish. They've shared a tank for over a year now with no problems. The longear doesn't have a big enough mouth to down the cray and is too big for the cray to bother. The cray does stay hidden most of the time so the entertainment value is pretty low, but it does work. They definitely are escape artists. They can climb right up the filter inlet tube. If there is a way, they will find it. We had one get out and find it's way under the fridge. It got covered with "under the fridge stuff". My wife was quite panicked when she saw a very large dust bunny moving across the floor.

My sunfish are exposed to temperatures from 60 to 85 degrees F. and do just fine.
Steve.

Edited by frogwhacker, 31 August 2011 - 06:19 PM.

#10 Guest_MichiJim_*

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 06:36 PM

I live in the north, too. Your basment should be fine, and many fish like to have a cooler season. Michael's option of topminnows and Ennacanthius reminds me of one of my all time favorite setups. You would enjoy it very much.

Crayfish were the first natives I ever kept. My opinion is they make a great species tank. They are active and will readily breed. But I have given up keeping them with my fish. Just not worth it in the bigger picture. But that is my opinion, there are others.

#11 Guest_hornpout_*

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 06:47 PM

I've kept crayfish with minnows and there was no dramatic extermination, just the occasional picking off. But what everyone says about escape artists, molting, etc is also true. But here's MY real problem with them...they love to hack down my plants, drag them to their little cave and eat the tender tips, then leave the great mass to float away (eventually to be sucked against the filter intake starting havoc). When they've eaten just the very tenderest morsels they'll skitter along to the next plant and continue the carnage. I've come home to a mess before, and I'm not keeping those things in my tank anymore. If I decide to keep them again, they'll be on their own. Erika, you have a beautiful planted tank, but if I were you, I'd go without crayfish. But I've only kept appellation creek and spiny cheeks, and am not an expert. Just sayin'.

#12 Michael Wolfe

Board of Directors

North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 31 August 2011 - 08:41 PM

I've got a question for crayfish keepers: Can crayfish eat minnows? Like, exterminate a whole group of them? Because I was just thinking they're fast, they swim in groups, and I can't really tell the different between individuals. So couldn't you just restock them once a year or so if the crayfish nibbles a couple?

Yes, I have done it and seen the numbers drop significantly... fish sleep at night, even minnow, you would be surprised how slow they get... crayfish hide and sleep all day, and wander around at night, eating fish and looking for escape routes.

Erica, I'm surprised at your comments here... normally you are so very into maintaining your population of fish and valueing each individual... minnows are people too, where's the love? :mellow:

You cant just let them get eaten in their sleep and then feel good about going to get more!? :unsure:

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

#13 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 01 September 2011 - 07:35 AM

Yes, I have done it and seen the numbers drop significantly... fish sleep at night, even minnow, you would be surprised how slow they get... crayfish hide and sleep all day, and wander around at night, eating fish and looking for escape routes.

Erica, I'm surprised at your comments here... normally you are so very into maintaining your population of fish and valueing each individual... minnows are people too, where's the love? You cant just let them get eaten in their sleep and then feel good about going to get more!?

When you put it that way it does sound kind of awful.

All the fish species I've ever kept have had such personality that of course I value the individual. But I guess when I think of minnows I think of them more as a herd, and losing 10% of a herd over the course of a year seems like an acceptable loss. But thinking about them as individuals, being afraid to fall asleep because they know there's something lurking in there, waiting to crush and eat them... yeah, that's pretty awful. I rescind the minnow schooling idea.

#14 Guest_StygianSteel_*

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Posted 01 September 2011 - 09:37 AM

No, do not put pygmy sunfish in there with a crayfish. Here's why:
http://gallery.nanfa... photo.jpg.html and http://gallery.nanfa...mber 3.jpg.html Those are adults. That scale is an inch. They also move slowly and spend most of their time on the bottom. Yummy, says the crayfish.

Yeah I'm aware of the size and that's about what I suspected. Was just saying I was open to different types of Sunfish. Looking for that size/temperament to coexist (if such a thing exists).

Have you considered shrimp instead of crayfish? There are pages and pages of invertebrates for sale on aquabid.com and some of them are quite peaceful. Link: http://www.aquabid.c...n.cgi?fwinverts

Someone on there is selling dwarf shufeldtii crayfish, which they claim grow to only 1.25 inches and don't harm fish.

The dwarfs are nice. Those are the dwarf cajuns I referred to. I'm more concerned about potential fish combos, in terms of what I was looking at, devouring those little guys

I hadn't really been thinking shrimp mostly because they can be touchy in terms of water parameters and I was thinking more natives. Ghosts are about the only available shrimp species for aquariums that somewhat exist in the US. I have kept a number of different varieties though and I do love em actually. Very interesting addition to a tank and nice for algae cleanup from plants & scavenging. I currently have some Amano shrimp and a Bamboo shrimp in my 20 gallon community. I've also kept Cherry shrimp in the past.

I have a crawdad living with my longear sunfish. They've shared a tank for over a year now with no problems. The longear doesn't have a big enough mouth to down the cray and is too big for the cray to bother. The cray does stay hidden most of the time so the entertainment value is pretty low, but it does work. They definitely are escape artists. They can climb right up the filter inlet tube. If there is a way, they will find it. We had one get out and find it's way under the fridge. It got covered with "under the fridge stuff". My wife was quite panicked when she saw a very large dust bunny moving across the floor.

My sunfish are exposed to temperatures from 60 to 85 degrees F. and do just fine.
Steve.

Thanks for your input/experience. That is something to think about. And yeah one concern I had is that even if the Sunfish didn't eat the Cray it would nip/harass it and it would probably hide. Hmmm decisions, decisions. It's kind of Cray vs Sunfish for me with a temptation to try both. Both sound like good, hardy options for this tank setup. I think I'm still leaning towards a Cray setup with lots of rockwork designed from river stones, slate, etc fashioned into caves and what not with silicon. I am just tempted to add a nice sunfish in the mix too though

And yeah I know how it gos with Crays being escape artists. I've dealt with similar instances with Amano shrimp. If you don't cover their tanks they'll go exploring.

----

As for the idea of a Crayfish with a school of expendable minnows or something of the like... I was actually considering this option. I don't really have a problem with this. Actually, I think it would be highly stimulating to the cray to be able to hunt. The minnows or whatever small fish would be like enrichment toys lol. Rough on the minnows perhaps, but such is the cycle of life

As long as I Viewed them as food and not pets I'd be ok with this. Not like I've never fed a pet live food before. Not pure a pure native tank, but if I was going to do this I might pick up something cheap and readily available that is ok with cooler/unheated water like perhaps Danios. Or maybe feeder/bait minnows for a more authentic look... price/availability depending.

#15 Guest_jblaylock_*

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Posted 01 September 2011 - 09:42 AM

... minnows are people too

I seriously love this....

#16 Guest_MichiJim_*

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Posted 01 September 2011 - 11:33 AM

As NANFA members, are we eligible for a discount if we join PETA?

Thanks, Mr Wolfe, we can use more humor on this board.

#17 Guest_jblaylock_*

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Posted 01 September 2011 - 09:32 PM

Thanks, Mr Wolfe, we can use more humor on this board.

Agreed...you have achieved stardom as you enter into my sig line for you words to live on forever.....that line, epic.

#18 Guest_gzeiger_*

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Posted 04 September 2011 - 10:15 AM

Crayfish and sunfish can get along fine if the cray is big enough to start with and has good cover available for molting time. I haven't had great success in tanks smaller than 75 gallons though, nor with smaller crayfish. The one I ended up keeping actually had been intended as a feeder and the 0.3% survival rate finally worked out in his favor.

#19 Guest_frogwhacker_*

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Posted 04 September 2011 - 05:17 PM

The tank that I have my longear and cray in is 45 gallons. I've also got about a dozen small shiners in there with them. I know this seems like an awful place for the shiners to live, but they really all do get along fine. My longear is full grown at only about 4.5 inches long and doesn't seem to be aggressive toward the shiners or even consider them as food. I feed heavily before turning the lights out at night with sinking pellets so it might be that the cray has enough to eat at night that it doesn't bother the shiners. I also make sure to drop some food near the cray's favorite hiding place to make sure he gets some in case the rest is eaten. It might also be that the cray is afraid to come out much with the sunfish in there and this keeps the shiners safe. Not sure why but it's been working for at least a year now.

Steve.

#20 Guest_Usil_*

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Posted 04 September 2011 - 07:13 PM

It's the variability that everyone describes that makes this hobby so interesting. If it were all guaranteed - if we do this then we get that - then it would just not be as much fun. Too true, there are some general rules that if broken you are likely to get the predicted results but then someone posts a story about it all working out. Add that to the addiction of fishing and collecting and then add tank arrangement and then add all those little happy guys that come to the front of the tank to see your face and feed - it is just a great hobby.

I did all this when I was younger and now that I have just retired I am getting hooked on it all again. All my old hobbies are becoming new again.

Glad I found NANFA.

Usil

Edited by Usil, 04 September 2011 - 07:18 PM.