Dealing with Zombie Fish

Obviously I am not talking undead creatures, but fish with debilitating and deforming effects of disease yet still live.

The first time I seen it was with a non native (a feeder goldfish who I put in with my minnows as I liked his white with orange dot color), he got a disease that was causing his face to rot, I medicated and it worked but only after he lost his lower jaw. Still he lived a year and managed to eat like this.

Currently my last virginia fish, a Tennesee Snubnose darter, is effected. He got popeye, a disease that from my killi experience is a death sentence. Having failed at medicating killis with this I decided to just let the darter die. (killis with pop eye die after a few days). It didn't die and weeks later it is still alive with hideous, bulging, white, sightless, "eyes" assuming they still count as eyes.

So here is my question. Should fish like this still be kept alive or should a fish be put out of its misery after a certain degree of debilitating illness?

I don't euthanize fish that acquire permanent damage from an illness. I just leave them alone. If they're contagious, I leave them alone in their own tank. If it's something that can't infect other fish, then I leave them alone in their home tank.

It's interesting that when you medicated your fish who had popeye, they all died. When you left the fish alone, it survived the popeye. Maybe you shouldn't be medicating them?
We don't know everything, and sometimes when we're trying to help the fish by adding medication, we're actually interfering with a self defense process that they've initiated to deal with the pathogen.

As a friend of mine once said, "Euthanasia seems like a good idea until a week later they find a cure."
It's possible your fish's eyes might uncloud and it could get better. *shrugs* I don't know. Of course, if it offends you with its "hideous" eyes, you can kill it and no one will punish you. There aren't any animal cruelty laws protecting fish, I don't think. *shrugs* People do worse things to fish every day: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/3040891.stm

Edited by EricaWieser, 06 October 2011 - 08:33 AM.

I don't think he wants to euthanize the fish because he finds it repulsive or offensive. I think he trying to decide if the fish has a quality of life that rules out putting it down. Cruelty doesn't enter into this situation IMHO. He is looking out for the fish' best interest.

There are so many things that can cause popeye, so what hit the killis might not be the same thing that's affecting the darter. If it's still acting normal, and nothing else has come down with it, I'd leave it be. If it starts acting strange, I'd put it down. This stuff is tricky to treat since there are so many different possible causes. THe best thing, I've found, for disease is frequent water changes and salt. Also, if you do take the medication route, just be sure to take the carbon out of your filter. I'm just saying that because in my past life at the fish store, this was something that was often overlooked. We also noticed that water quality was often a trigger for disease outbreaks. Another thing we would manipulate in dealing with disease (mainly ich, a parasite) was temperature. Different fishes and pathogens react differently to temperature changes, though.

Edited by rjmtx, 06 October 2011 - 09:02 AM.

Unfortunately fish cannot explain to us their amount of discomfort. We have to rely on our interpretation of visual cues we get from their actions such as flashing, rapid or labored gill movement, gasping at the top of the water column, lack of appetite, etc.... We, as humans, have very different standards for what we consider 'quality of life' than other animals do. I think it's safe to say that, except for brightly colored breeding males of some species, aesthetic values are not nearly as important to a fish as they are to humans. While we require social interaction, most predator fish can be just as happy by themselves. These are only a couple of examples, but basically, I don't think we can apply our own standards of "quality of life" to a fish. We can only act on the amount of discomfort that we feel the fish is in, and even then, it's a judgment call. Ultimately of course, it's your fish and your decision, and I don't think anyone should fault you for whatever you decide to do and at what point you decide to do it at. As friends in the native fish community, we can only offer ideas and information to help you decide at what point you want to euthanize at, or if at all.

Steve.

The goldfish's symptoms sound like classic Mycobacterium infection. Slow-progressing head/body lesions and jaws rotting away are typical for Myco. Bulging eyes can also be a Myco symptom, but lots of other things can cause that too. If it's been that way for weeks or months, then I'd suspect Myco in the darter too. Mycobacterium are virtually everywhere and infections in fish area not curable, but fish can live for years with it if everything else is good. Diet deficiency, poor water quality, or old age makes it fatal. If the fish looks likes it's going to die soon, get it out before other fish start eating it.

The first time I seen it was with a non native (a feeder goldfish who I put in with my minnows as I liked his white with orange dot color), he got a disease that was causing his face to rot, I medicated and it worked but only after he lost his lower jaw. Still he lived a year and managed to eat like this.

Currently my last virginia fish, a Tennesee Snubnose darter, is effected. He got popeye, a disease that from my killi experience is a death sentence. Having failed at medicating killis with this I decided to just let the darter die. (killis with pop eye die after a few days). It didn't die and weeks later it is still alive with hideous, bulging, white, sightless, "eyes" assuming they still count as eyes.

I second the myco call. I put some blue fin killies from my lfs feeder tank the spring before last. They were carrying myco and spread it to my bluespots and the other fish in the tank at the time. I battled it with expensive meds and some of the fish survived and recovered, but once in a while one of them will have an eyeball burst, or get popeye and start swimming sideways, or any number of other funky symptoms. Now knowing about myco, I see it is just about always present in LFS feeder tank fish. Also some tropical fish such as danios and gouramis are famous carriers. These fish can carry the disease and not show it or suffer from it because they have built up immunity. Take a tropical strain of myco and add to native fish, boom! They do not have immunity. That's my take on it.
My best male bluespotted sunfish I have had one eye pop right out of its socket. I was very pained to put him down as he is amazing. In the end I did not and he has learned to live just fine with one eye. He still dominates the tank and gets all the ladies. I have one beautiful offspring of his who may take the throne.
A few days ago one of my other males developed severe popeye. He was not well at all, so I decided it was time to put him in the deep freeze. Quality of life is very important, unfortunately it is up to us to make the call sometimes. I feel it is more humane to euthanize than to let a fish live in misery. Keeping the infected fish from being eaten by others is also crucial.

Unless you have fish with twisted spines, then I really doubt it's a mycobacterium marinum infection. My tanks had mycobacterium marinum in them for a little over a year, and when fish got old or susceptible for some reasons, their spines would twist out of shape.

Look at the fish at 30 seconds in, how twisted its spine is:

And the whole time period my tanks had mycobacterium marinum, I never had a fish with pop eye.

You might want to read this dichotomous key: http://www.fishyfarm...eases/eyes.html

Edited by EricaWieser, 07 October 2011 - 09:18 AM.

I have. Mycobacteriosis symptoms can include pop-eye, bloating, thinning, head/body sores, jaw and spine deformities, fin paralysis (pectoral or pelvics), neurologic problems including loss of balance or color darkening, etc. There are several other Myco strains beside M. marinum that can infect fish, possibly with different symptoms, and Myco symptoms vary from fish to fish anyway.

Unless you have fish with twisted spines, then I really doubt it's a mycobacterium marinum infection.
... the whole time period my tanks had mycobacterium marinum, I never had a fish with pop eye.