If I remember right (correct me if I am wrong) most male sunfish are more colorful than females. Also male sunfish not females watch the nest.
This goes different from what I learned of birds where the drab female uses her camoflaged colors to safely watch the nest while the brightly colored male was free. With birds I always heard that if a female was brightly colored she'd draw predators to the nest endangering her young or at the least leaving them helpless as a predator takes her.
How do male sunfish get away with being colorful while watching a nest? Did they find a way to compensate for being easier targets. (Perhaps through enhanced agression). Wouldn't natural selection select for duller males to ensure their young survive?
How do sunfish avoid the bird dilemma
Started by
Guest_FirstChAoS_*
, Oct 27 2011 12:15 AM
6 replies to this topic
#2
Guest_frogwhacker_*
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Posted 27 October 2011 - 03:19 AM
I believe natural selection actually selects for more colorful male sunfish as their colors help entice breeding females. I also believe your probably right in your guess that enhanced aggression keeps them safer at the nest. Some sunfish nest in "groups". It seems like that could be like walking through a minefield for any fish. Their nests can also often be in places that larger predator fish don't feel comfortable going. Sunfish(Lepomis anyway) also usually way outnumber any larger predator fish in the area too, which means that a few losses won't affect the overall number or the gene pool of the species. It's also interesting that many predator fish don't tend to be as aggressive when there are a lot of smaller fish that are very active around. I've seen this with keeping different minnows with sunfish in aquariums, but I'm not sure how much of a factor this is in the wild though. I also believe that many predator fish are more attracted to a single or solid bright flash than they are a lot of different popping colors. These are just my thoughts. I'm sure there is much more going on than I could understand and I'm sure there are a lot of folks that have a better handle on this than I do, but it is interesting to talk about.
Steve.
Steve.
#3
Guest_EricaWieser_*
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Posted 27 October 2011 - 08:33 AM
Sunfish aren't really colorful from above. They're colorful when you look at them from the side, but on the top of their heads they're usually drab to blend in with the substrate. There are some fish in Lake Tangayika that are super shiny and that birds can see from the air. The males do this dance where they sparkle in the sunlight, and birds dive in the water and get them. Watch this video, starting at 40 seconds in:
(I'll mention that that's the famous Tanganyika video, part 4, for in the future when the link goes dead)
Anyway, those fish get eaten by birds. Sunfish are colorful, yes, but not shiny directly into the air like that. The group nesting that frogwhacker mentioned plays a role, too. Here's an image of sunfish spawning beds, all near one another: http://adambavier.co...er_1024x680.jpg
(I'll mention that that's the famous Tanganyika video, part 4, for in the future when the link goes dead)
Anyway, those fish get eaten by birds. Sunfish are colorful, yes, but not shiny directly into the air like that. The group nesting that frogwhacker mentioned plays a role, too. Here's an image of sunfish spawning beds, all near one another: http://adambavier.co...er_1024x680.jpg
Edited by EricaWieser, 27 October 2011 - 08:46 AM.
#4
Guest_FirstChAoS_*
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Posted 29 October 2011 - 12:31 AM
Well, most lepomis I see do have a colorful patch on their fins easilly visible from above. (spotted a nesting sunfish from a bridge due to this).
Though birds do fit as a potential predator, I meant how sunfish pit natural selection (not drawing attention to vulnerable eggs) against sexual selection (bright colors to avoid mates). While birds avoid this by usually having the duller colored female tend the nest.
Thank you everyone for answering.
Though birds do fit as a potential predator, I meant how sunfish pit natural selection (not drawing attention to vulnerable eggs) against sexual selection (bright colors to avoid mates). While birds avoid this by usually having the duller colored female tend the nest.
Thank you everyone for answering.
#5
Guest_Kanus_*
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Posted 29 October 2011 - 09:34 AM
I would personally say it has much to do with the size of the fish vs. any possible predator. Sunfish are relatively large in comparison to most other fish, and a full grown sunfish has a very limited suite of potential predators (aquatic ones anyway). On the other hand, any aquatic predators that would be drawn to the nests would be far too large to want to bother with eating the tiny eggs. A large pike, musky, or XL largemouth bass trying to take down a nesting male sunfish would have no interest in the eggs. Meanwhile, anything that would actually want to eat eggs or larvae would likely be a much smaller, "minnow-sized" fish which could easily be driven away by a mob of angry male Lepomis.
I understand the comparison to birds, but birds are in general much smaller creatures compared to potential predators, with much larger eggs. Instead of a few nesting sparrows, trying to predate the nest of a sunfish would be more like walking into a large group of angry geese sitting on eggs, based on their size/aggression. An egg predator (a raccoon would fit the bill here) would easily be driven away by the group, while a larger animal (a lion perhaps? taking the place of a musky) would be chasing after a goose, and likely would ignore the eggs. Of course this analogy doesn't take into account that Lepomis eggs would be more like a pile of jellybeans than a large target like a goose egg.
Sorry for the rather convoluted analogy there, but hopefully it made sense.
I understand the comparison to birds, but birds are in general much smaller creatures compared to potential predators, with much larger eggs. Instead of a few nesting sparrows, trying to predate the nest of a sunfish would be more like walking into a large group of angry geese sitting on eggs, based on their size/aggression. An egg predator (a raccoon would fit the bill here) would easily be driven away by the group, while a larger animal (a lion perhaps? taking the place of a musky) would be chasing after a goose, and likely would ignore the eggs. Of course this analogy doesn't take into account that Lepomis eggs would be more like a pile of jellybeans than a large target like a goose egg.
Sorry for the rather convoluted analogy there, but hopefully it made sense.
#6
Guest_nativeplanter_*
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Posted 29 October 2011 - 12:38 PM
I was thinking the same thing myself - sunfish guarding nests are pretty large; I don't know if freshwater bird predators would eat something that big? Maybe a pelican? Now that would be a sight!. And, of course, now I'm not going to be able to look at geese (that flock here in the winter) without thinking about jellybeans!!
#7
littlen
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Posted 01 November 2011 - 08:19 AM
My two cents stem from how a bird and fish subsequently raise/tend to their eggs. A female bird has to constantly sit on her eggs to keep them warm, as opposed to being nearby and simply protecting them. Since she is more vulnerable in this position, she wouldn't want to be brightly colored to draw attention to herself and her larger, more nutritious, and fewer eggs. Like others have said, a few sunfish eggs getting picked off here or there is what is expected. Hence the fact that so many are laid. Furthermore, have you ever seen a male sunfish sleeping on the job? I once new of a male Redear that charged the side of the tank so hard to protect his brood that he killed himself slamming into the acrylic. Now that's dedication. The flip side of that is a lot of female birds choose to flee rather than defend their eggs....at least when a 'human-sized predator' wants to take a peek in the nest.
Nick L.
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