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#1 Guest_az9_*

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 11:52 AM

I've got an inverter I want to hook up to my air and water pumps in case of a power outage. I have everything ready to go and all instructions are clearly understood including parallel wiring some 12 volt batteries to get more run time. Only question is I am instructed to wire my green ground wire that comes from the inverter to an "earth ground." As far as I know I don't have an "earth ground" in my basement and/or don't know where to look. I do have one outside that connects to my main power supply but it's nowhere near my inverter.

My plug ins are GFI's so perhaps I don't need a ground wire? On the other hand if it's imperative I have an earth ground I can install one outside near the inverter which will only require a small hole drilled through the wood foundation. It wouldn't be that much trouble but if I don't have to do it I would rather not.

On the other hand I don't want to skip it if it means potential damage to my inverter, myself, or my pumps.

Believe it or not I've done an extensive Internet search on this and haven't found anything conclusive. I will call the inverter manufacturer Monday but presently it's the weekend.

Thanks!

Edited by az9, 20 November 2011 - 11:54 AM.


#2 Guest_Usil_*

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 12:36 PM

I am not an electrician but I have used a wire hooked to a water or gas pipe that runs in the basement as these are all grounded to earth. But if you do anything wrong you are playing with potential hazard or even death which is why you need to talk to an electrician. Also, some inverters are not designed for sensitive electronic equipment but only motors or simple things like electric shavers.

Usil

#3 Guest_frigginchi_*

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 01:19 PM

Brand and model of inverter? The instructions should tell you how to bond your ground wire. If you don't have a ground rod nearby you can usually bond it to your water pipes assuming that they are copper. If not, I'd suggest driving in a ground rod as close as you can to the inverter. There are vids on youtube detailing how to do it.




I've got an inverter I want to hook up to my air and water pumps in case of a power outage. I have everything ready to go and all instructions are clearly understood including parallel wiring some 12 volt batteries to get more run time. Only question is I am instructed to wire my green ground wire that comes from the inverter to an "earth ground." As far as I know I don't have an "earth ground" in my basement and/or don't know where to look. I do have one outside that connects to my main power supply but it's nowhere near my inverter.

My plug ins are GFI's so perhaps I don't need a ground wire? On the other hand if it's imperative I have an earth ground I can install one outside near the inverter which will only require a small hole drilled through the wood foundation. It wouldn't be that much trouble but if I don't have to do it I would rather not.

On the other hand I don't want to skip it if it means potential damage to my inverter, myself, or my pumps.

Believe it or not I've done an extensive Internet search on this and haven't found anything conclusive. I will call the inverter manufacturer Monday but presently it's the weekend.

Thanks!


Edited by frigginchi, 20 November 2011 - 01:24 PM.


#4 Guest_az9_*

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 02:08 PM

I am not an electrician but I have used a wire hooked to a water or gas pipe that runs in the basement as these are all grounded to earth. But if you do anything wrong you are playing with potential hazard or even death which is why you need to talk to an electrician. Also, some inverters are not designed for sensitive electronic equipment but only motors or simple things like electric shavers.

Usil


Been there done that. I tried a computer UPS once. It worked great for a few minutes until the UPS started warping! LOL

This one comes recommended for my purpose by a large aquarium supply house (Jehmco) I bought one inverter from them and an identical one for $100.00 less on Amazon.com.

#5 Guest_az9_*

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 02:15 PM

Brand and model of inverter? The instructions should tell you how to bond your ground wire. If you don't have a ground rod nearby you can usually bond it to your water pipes assuming that they are copper. If not, I'd suggest driving in a ground rod as close as you can to the inverter. There are vids on youtube detailing how to do it.



Tripp-lite APS 750 here:

http://www.amazon.co...21816448&sr=1-1

So I'd have to drive a ground rod outside the basement wall and run the ground wire to it?

#6 Guest_Usil_*

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 03:40 PM

As said, any water pipe or gas line that comes into the basement to feed your gas or water house circuits (water heater, gas supply to your home heater, water softener, etc...) are all coming in through the ground through your basement wall so they are grounded.

Usil

Edited by Usil, 20 November 2011 - 03:42 PM.


#7 Guest_Skipjack_*

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 05:33 PM

I have the 1200 watt model, and did not ground it. When you are running on 120, it is grounded. The ground is only important when running on battery. These are used in ambulances, and are usually grounded to the frame. I would not worry about it myself. Plus the unit itself is GFCI protected.

#8 Guest_countrybumpkin_*

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 06:00 PM

As said, any water pipe or gas line that comes into the basement to feed your gas or water house circuits (water heater, gas supply to your home heater, water softener, etc...) are all coming in through the ground through your basement wall so they are grounded.

Usil

Never, never use a gas line for a ground!!

#9 Guest_gzeiger_*

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 06:15 PM

I don't really see the danger in that...

I get that it sounds like a bad idea, but there's no way using a pipe for a ground is going to result in an arc, even if there were to be a gas leak (and if you think it might arc, let's be honest - I wouldn't hook that up to a water pipe either, or anywhere else in my house).

#10 Guest_az9_*

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 08:07 PM

As said, any water pipe or gas line that comes into the basement to feed your gas or water house circuits (water heater, gas supply to your home heater, water softener, etc...) are all coming in through the ground through your basement wall so they are grounded.

Usil


Makes sense but I was at Menards and picked up a clamp and ground rod for $10.00. I don't have any metal pipes in the house nor do I have gas coming in. I'm just going to pound it into the ground and run the ground wire to it and be done with it. I'll have to drill a very small hole just above ground level in the back of the house but that is easily caulked.

Thank you all for your responses!

Edited by az9, 20 November 2011 - 08:08 PM.


#11 Guest_Usil_*

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 10:54 PM

That is what phone companies do. I have seen metal spikes in the ground near houses and the ground line to the phone system is hooked to the spike.

Usil

#12 Guest_mywan_*

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 03:44 AM

Generally speaking in a properly wired house the 3rd round prong on your outlets is indeed an earth ground. Somewhere outside your house, generally below the meter and primary breaker box, is a large copper rod drove into the ground for which the main breaker box is earth ground to, providing the earth ground to all internal electrical outlets. However, some older house are not so well grounded, and/or age has corroded the grounding connection. When an inverter, or similar equipment, is sold the instructions often specify earth ground so that the installer understands to insure that in the event of a house or other circumstance of installation that lacks a proper good ground that one should be provided separately. Such equipment often contains op amps which are particularly sensitive to ground faults which will fry them even when normal motors and solenoids seem to work fine. As noted: if your house wiring meets modern codes the normal ground prong on any of your outlets is sufficient. If in doubt and you want to insure a proper ground you can buy a copper grounding rod from any Lowes, Home depot, etc. Drive it into the ground just outside your house next to the foundation with just a few inches left exposed above the ground. Then use a ground rod clamp to attach a single strand house wire to it and run it directly to the earth ground on the equipment.

Some (extra) technical details:
In an AC power system provided by the power company the alternating current means that there is no polarity difference between the hot and cold (black and white) wire. They both alternate between negative and positive. Hence what makes the difference between that black and white wire is not electrical polarity, but the fact that the white (cold) side is solidly grounded to the earth. Hence, under normal no fault circumstances, grabbing hold of the white wire with power on should not result in electrocution. The same cannot be said about the black (hot) wire because in that case your body becomes the grounding instrument resulting in electrocution. The power system could work in principle without this grounding at all, but would make nearly ANY circuit fault potentially deadly and/or destructive to the faulty equipment.

Now in older homes with 2-pronged outlets the fact that the white wire was is fact grounded, in the same manner as the 3rd ground wire, was deemed a sufficient safety measure against faulty equipment. Indeed it is sufficient, so long as the ground fault exist in the equipment, and not in the wiring itself. Hence it is not uncommon, in older house with 2-prong systems and a faulty ground, to feel a tingling sensation when touching the metal parts of an electrical cooktop for instance. Modern code adds a separate green (or bare) grounding wire to the system which, at the breaker box, is wired directly to the white wire to provide grounding to the white wire. This ground wire is then separately extended throughout the system to provide multiple redundant grounding points for each piece of equipment. Hence a ground fault a one piece of equipment will not result in the destruction of any other equipment on the system. Though it has an even bigger safety advantage. In the event of a systemic ground fault it becomes trivial to test at any point anywhere in the system simply by testing whether you can read any current between the ground wire and the white (hopefully) cold wire anywhere in the system.

You can even buy a cheap tester from Ace which makes testing for ground faults easy without any need to understand the system itself. If the little red light comes on you have a ground fault that needs attention. Likely due to corrosion at the ground rod clamp at the top of the ground rod, though other forms of faults can and do occur. This is what makes wiring a breaker box counter intuitive to anybody thinking in terms of electrical polarity. It is at the breaker box *only* in which crossing wires which is absolutely not to be crossed in any other circumstances is routine. It's not so obvious to many people why a wire that is connected directly to exposed metal surfaces on equipment in the house is connected directly to a current carrying wire in the breaker box.

Final note:
Should you decide to provide a separate grounding rod for a specific piece of equipment, such as your inverter, no inspector will ever take issue with it. In the event your grounding system is working properly without it, doing so only builds redundancy into the system in a manner that an inspector requires to be present with or without the redundancy, and might save your inverter from being fried by a trivial low current fault that would not otherwise pose any sort of safety or equipment issues.

#13 Guest_Skipjack_*

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 06:36 PM

Generally speaking in a properly wired house the 3rd round prong on your outlets is indeed an earth ground. Somewhere outside your house, generally below the meter and primary breaker box, is a large copper rod drove into the ground for which the main breaker box is earth ground to, providing the earth ground to all internal electrical outlets. However, some older house are not so well grounded, and/or age has corroded the grounding connection. When an inverter, or similar equipment, is sold the instructions often specify earth ground so that the installer understands to insure that in the event of a house or other circumstance of installation that lacks a proper good ground that one should be provided separately. Such equipment often contains op amps which are particularly sensitive to ground faults which will fry them even when normal motors and solenoids seem to work fine. As noted: if your house wiring meets modern codes the normal ground prong on any of your outlets is sufficient. If in doubt and you want to insure a proper ground you can buy a copper grounding rod from any Lowes, Home depot, etc. Drive it into the ground just outside your house next to the foundation with just a few inches left exposed above the ground. Then use a ground rod clamp to attach a single strand house wire to it and run it directly to the earth ground on the equipment.

Some (extra) technical details:
In an AC power system provided by the power company the alternating current means that there is no polarity difference between the hot and cold (black and white) wire. They both alternate between negative and positive. Hence what makes the difference between that black and white wire is not electrical polarity, but the fact that the white (cold) side is solidly grounded to the earth. Hence, under normal no fault circumstances, grabbing hold of the white wire with power on should not result in electrocution. The same cannot be said about the black (hot) wire because in that case your body becomes the grounding instrument resulting in electrocution. The power system could work in principle without this grounding at all, but would make nearly ANY circuit fault potentially deadly and/or destructive to the faulty equipment.

Now in older homes with 2-pronged outlets the fact that the white wire was is fact grounded, in the same manner as the 3rd ground wire, was deemed a sufficient safety measure against faulty equipment. Indeed it is sufficient, so long as the ground fault exist in the equipment, and not in the wiring itself. Hence it is not uncommon, in older house with 2-prong systems and a faulty ground, to feel a tingling sensation when touching the metal parts of an electrical cooktop for instance. Modern code adds a separate green (or bare) grounding wire to the system which, at the breaker box, is wired directly to the white wire to provide grounding to the white wire. This ground wire is then separately extended throughout the system to provide multiple redundant grounding points for each piece of equipment. Hence a ground fault a one piece of equipment will not result in the destruction of any other equipment on the system. Though it has an even bigger safety advantage. In the event of a systemic ground fault it becomes trivial to test at any point anywhere in the system simply by testing whether you can read any current between the ground wire and the white (hopefully) cold wire anywhere in the system.

You can even buy a cheap tester from Ace which makes testing for ground faults easy without any need to understand the system itself. If the little red light comes on you have a ground fault that needs attention. Likely due to corrosion at the ground rod clamp at the top of the ground rod, though other forms of faults can and do occur. This is what makes wiring a breaker box counter intuitive to anybody thinking in terms of electrical polarity. It is at the breaker box *only* in which crossing wires which is absolutely not to be crossed in any other circumstances is routine. It's not so obvious to many people why a wire that is connected directly to exposed metal surfaces on equipment in the house is connected directly to a current carrying wire in the breaker box.

Final note:
Should you decide to provide a separate grounding rod for a specific piece of equipment, such as your inverter, no inspector will ever take issue with it. In the event your grounding system is working properly without it, doing so only builds redundancy into the system in a manner that an inspector requires to be present with or without the redundancy, and might save your inverter from being fried by a trivial low current fault that would not otherwise pose any sort of safety or equipment issues.

Great post!

#14 Guest_az9_*

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Posted 22 December 2011 - 08:41 PM

Thanks for all the great posts!

Update:


No ground rod needed to be installed as the wiring of the house is already grounded according to the manufacturer of the inverter. The inverter is hooked up to two deep cycle batteries and running well with indicator lights showing the batteries are fully charged and AC is working correctly. I got to see it kick on and off the I day installed it as we had one power outage (very brief) and the GFIC's got tripped several times that day during a heavy wet snowstorm. Initially I was worried the GFIC's weren't compatible and that is why they were tripping. However after a call to my neighbor she had the same thing happen to here. LOL I do not have the inverter plugged into a GFIC though as I can't take the change of any frivolous tripping but the plug in is well off the floor in another room. (Drilled a hole through the basement particion.

I would recommend this inverter etc. to anyone. I can sleep better at night now and with the total of 80 watts for two fish tanks (500 gallons) and a large RBC I can run on the DC for hours if the power goes out. I going to add a third battery at some point to increase amps and running time even more.

#15 Guest_Doug_Dame_*

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Posted 23 December 2011 - 01:06 AM

I got to see it kick on and off the I day installed it as we had one power outage (very brief) and the GFIC's got tripped several times that day during a heavy wet snowstorm. Initially I was worried the GFIC's weren't compatible and that is why they were tripping. However after a call to my neighbor she had the same thing happen to here. LOL I do not have the inverter plugged into a GFIC though as I can't take the change of any frivolous tripping but the plug in is well off the floor in another room.

I have a couple of "portable" GFICs I picked up in the "industrial extension cord" section of my local home improvement store. When there is a power outage, they must be reset manually. This is apparently a designed safety feature, in case you have a circular saw or other destructive tool still plugged when the power is restored. The "bathroom in-wall, GFCI w/ outlet" does not have this feature. I run a special line with no GFIC, high off the floor, just to my central air pump. Well, technically, to an x00w computer UPS, into which the air pump is plugged. It'll run for at least a few hours if a storm temporarily knocks out power to the neighborhood. I was pretty annoyed the first couple of times when the power had been back on for hours, but my UPS was drained and my fish were airless. Finally I figured it out. The GFIC was doing precisely what it was designed to do, I just didn't understand exactly what that was.




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