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Shiners, Darters, in a 75 gallon

Started by Guest_NotThePainter_* , Nov 22 2011 02:48 PM

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#1 Guest_NotThePainter_*

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 02:48 PM

Hello

I'm new to Natives but not new to fishkeeping. Over the next 6 months I plan to start up a NA Native's tank. The plan is for a 75 gallon tank with about 10 rainbow darters and a large number of Rainbow Shiners and maybe some Bluefin Killies. I figure that planning now will help prevent disaster later. I have read the New to Natives 101 doc, and about a million web pages, but the more knowledge the better. (And if there are any native keepers in south east Massachusetts, awesome, say hi!)

The Fish Room

My fish room is my home office. I'm a software guy and I sit there 8-10 hours a day, 5 days a week. I'll have a 55 in there and a 10, both kept around 80 degrees. The room is heated in the winter and cooled with a window unit in the summer. The heater is on a programmable thermostat, set to 68 degrees when I'm there and 58 when I'm not. The AC is only on when I'm there. I live in Provincetown Mass so it doesn't get all that hot here in the summer. You can see climate data at http://www.city-data...sachusetts.html but the daily high reaches around 80 degrees and a low of 60 in the middle of the summer. So it is possble for the fish room to get warm in the summer, but not that warm. We occaisonally get into the 90s but the AC will certainly be running then, at least Monday through Friday! The fish room is well shaded.

The Tank

I'm just waiting for a good deal to show up on craigslist. But I'd like a 75 gallon, but I'd settle for a 50. I plan on building a riffle tank, with powerheads blowing one way, sucking up water from buried PVC pipe which is attached to sponges on the other end. I may also have a canister or hang on the back filter. I prefer a canister but they are pricey! Substrate will be playground sand, topped with gravel (from my reading, looks like 1" or so gravel is preferred) topped with silicon glued larger river rocks which I'll collect from streams in New Hampshire. (I'll boil all collected rocks.) I may put a piece of driftwood or two. I gather that isn't strictly accurate but I do like the look! The tank will be tightly covered with a glass cover, topped with a 4 foot shop light with 2 plant bulbs in it. For my tropicals I've always kept a 12 hour photoperiod, but from my reading I realize I should have the photoperiod track the seasons. I will not have a heater in the tank. I'll put an airstone in if you all tell me to!

The Plants

Even though the tank will be cool I hope to keep some live plants, in particular corkscrew val. I think that that will look lovely being swept by the current. Anubias is also possible.

The Fish

I primarily want to keep Notropis chrosomus, the Rainbow Shiner. I'd love about 20 of them but wouldn't cry if i had more. They are the real focus of the tank. Next would be Etheostoma caeruleum, the Rainbow Darter. I'd like to keep a sufficient amount so they are happy. Is that 5, 10? Any more and the tank sounds like it will be getting crowded. Ideally I'd also have some Lucania goodei, the Bluefin Killie, but if the tank is too crowded I can do with out them.

I really want to not have to provide live food. From all my reading, frozen bloodworms are accepted by the rainbow darters most of the time. (If they don't, man, I'm screwed...) I do not plan on breeding the fish, if it happens, that's great, but I don't have the facilities to raise the fry.

I'm also way open to other suggestions on fish to keep. As you can probably tell, I'm a big fan of colorful fish and fish that don't hide. Basically, look good and come out and say hi once in awhile...

)

And of course I'm open to any and all advice on my setup. Sure, tell me if I'm doing it right, but more importantly, tell me if I'm doing it wrong! Thank you all so much!

Paul

#2 Guest_fundulus_*

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 03:09 PM

Your fish numbers are about right. But the bluefin killies are from a very different biotope than the other two. Both rainbow shiners and darters are found in flowing water over sand, gravel and rock, while the bluefins are from still, vegetated waters.

#3 Guest_NotThePainter_*

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 03:17 PM

Your fish numbers are about right. But the bluefin killies are from a very different biotope than the other two. Both rainbow shiners and darters are found in flowing water over sand, gravel and rock, while the bluefins are from still, vegetated waters.

Well that would be a reason to not have them then! I've read so many pages that that fact must have escaped me. Thanks, they are off the list. So 20 shiners and 10 darters is good? Or since I've scratched the killies I have have more shiners?

#4 Guest_blakemarkwell_*

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 04:28 PM

It sounds like you're off to a good start for the 'Rainbow Tank'. Bruce is right -- L. goodei would be the aberrant member in that setup (not that people wouldn't try it). If you're looking for a fundulid to takes it place, they're are a handful of lotic denizens out there. Two that would occur with N. chrosomus are F. olivaceus and F. stellifer (although I've heard Xenisma can be quite rowdy!). In general, most native lotic species will do just fine with some flow, a lot of aeration and food, and as low of a temperature as you can provide, but it sounds like you already know that!

Good luck!

#5 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 05:12 PM

I really want to not have to provide live food. From all my reading, frozen bloodworms are accepted by the rainbow darters most of the time. (If they don't, man, I'm screwed...)

Frozen bloodworms are accepted by rainbow darters, that is true. I feed my Elassoma gilberti frozen bloodworms, and they gobble them up as fast as they can, swimming right up to my tweezers to grab them. *nods* So that is a good food. Just don't touch them. Bloodworms have something in them that causes a building allergy. Every time you get exposed to them you get a little bit more allergic.

You can also feed your darters the following foods:
1. live or frozen blackworms
2. grindal worms
3. shredded frozen cocktail shrimp

Blackworms are different from bloodworms, although they're not black in color. They look like this: http://gallery.nanfa...ageViewsIndex=1 They are a true aquatic worm, not a larvae of an insect, so if the darters miss one (unlikely) they will stay alive in your aquarium, not rot. They were sold by the specialty fish store I used to live near for $2 a bag or so, really inexpensive, but are not carried by the chain pet store I now leave near.

Grindal worms are not an aquatic worm; they are terrestrial. There are pros and cons to this. Pro, you can easily culture them in a spare tupperware container. They eat fish food or dog/cat kibble and live on either a faux soil or sponge substrate. Con, if they are not eaten by a fish in your tank (unlikely), they will eventually drown underwater and rot. But darters loooove live wiggly worms, and will probably hunt down the vast majority of the worms so rotting isn't really something you have to worry about. Another con is if you're not good at culturing them, the initial innoculum may take a few months to reach a harvestable population size.

Shredded frozen cocktail shrimp is when you take the $3 bag of non-breaded cocktail shrimp you can buy at a grocery store like Aldi's, take it home, freeze it, and every day grab out two shrimp or so. You, wearing gloves I hope, shred the frozen shrimp against the fine side of a cheese grater to produce very very finely sliced minced pieces of shrimp. The darters are ecstatic about eating these pieces, but be careful because you can hurt your hand while grating or do it wrong and end up with something too large for them to eat. I don't think they have teeth, so what they can fit in their mouth is what they can eat. *nods*

You might have noticed that in each paragraph above I was talking about your darters. Shiners like the rainbow shiners are much less picky about what they eat. It's likely that yours may eat flakes. I've never kept them, though, so I'll let someone else talk about shiner food to you.

Also, stick a chemical free sponge now in one of the filters for your other tanks. It'll get colonized by the bacteria in the long established filter. Then when your new tank arrives you can transfer the sponge over to its filter, effectively establishing the nitrosomonas and nitrospira bacteria and drastically reducing the 'cycling' time of the tank.

Edited by EricaWieser, 22 November 2011 - 05:23 PM.

#6 Guest_fundulus_*

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 05:27 PM

I thought about suggesting F. stellifer for this set-up, since they are pretty fish and are certainly often found with the rainbow shiners in particular. But one would have to deal with two issues: 1) stellifer is probably the jumpiest species most of us would ever consider keeping in an aquarium; adults are fairly large and VERY athletic. If netting them in the wild, you have to cover a bucket you put them in immediately or they're gone. And 2), adults are difficult to acclimate to captivity. If you start with small ones, 2-3 cm, it may well work. Alternatively you could try some other species from that biotope like Coosa or Burrhead shiners, or Coosa darters.

#7 Guest_NotThePainter_*

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 05:39 PM

It sounds like you're off to a good start for the 'Rainbow Tank'. Bruce is right -- L. goodei would be the aberrant member in that setup (not that people wouldn't try it). If you're looking for a fundulid to takes it place, they're are a handful of lotic denizens out there. Two that would occur with N. chrosomus are F. olivaceus and F. stellifer (although I've heard Xenisma can be quite rowdy!). In general, most native lotic species will do just fine with some flow, a lot of aeration and food, and as low of a temperature as you can provide, but it sounds like you already know that!

Good luck!

The Rainbow tank? Now, that would be my 55 with Melanotaenia Praecox "Pagai" and the 10 gallon with Psuedomugil Gertudae "Aru II" in it.

) Hey, I like color, I'll admit it...

I wasn't married to the Bluefin, or even a fundulus. I just googled the olivaceus and stellifer, off hand they look ok, but a bit boring, but of course personality counts a lot!

#8 Guest_NotThePainter_*

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 05:45 PM

You can also feed your darters the following foods:

...

Blackworms are different from bloodworms, although they're not black in color.

Awesome, thanks!

hey look like this: http://gallery.nanfa...ageViewsIndex=1 They are a true aquatic worm, not a larvae of an insect, so if the darters miss one (unlikely) they will stay alive in your aquarium, not rot. They were sold by the specialty fish store I used to live near for $2 a bag or so, really inexpensive, but are not carried by the chain pet store I now leave near.

Check out a map of Cape Cod. I live at the end, I think my nearest good fish store is in Boston, which is about a 2 hour drive.

Grindal worms are not an aquatic worm; they are terrestrial. There are pros and cons to this. Pro, you can easily culture them in a spare tupperware container. They eat fish food or dog/cat kibble and live on either a faux soil or sponge substrate.

I've raised these before, but not too successfully. But it sounds like it will keep the darters happy.

Shredded frozen cocktail shrimp is when you take the $3 bag of non-breaded cocktail shrimp you can buy at a grocery store like Aldi's, take it home, freeze it, and every day grab out two shrimp or so.

I didn't know that, cool!

Also, stick a chemical free sponge now in one of the filters for your other tanks. It'll get colonized by the bacteria in the long established filter. Then when your new tank arrives you can transfer the sponge over to its filter, effectively establishing the nitrosomonas and nitrospira bacteria and drastically reducing the 'cycling' time of the tank.

I have 2 tanks running now, both with hang on the back filters. I keep sponges on the intake for just that reason. Instant cycling for a new tank.

#9 Guest_NotThePainter_*

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 05:49 PM

I thought about suggesting F. stellifer for this set-up, since they are pretty fish and are certainly often found with the rainbow shiners in particular. But one would have to deal with two issues: 1) stellifer is probably the jumpiest species most of us would ever consider keeping in an aquarium; adults are fairly large and VERY athletic. If netting them in the wild, you have to cover a bucket you put them in immediately or they're gone. And 2), adults are difficult to acclimate to captivity. If you start with small ones, 2-3 cm, it may well work.

That's jumpy! I've raised killies before, so I'm used to that, but that sounds pretty extreme!

Alternatively you could try some other species from that biotope like Coosa or Burrhead shiners, or Coosa darters.

Again, thanks, I'll add them to the list. The Coosa darters look amazing! Could I cut the number of Rainbows in half and use half Rainbows, half Coosa? Or do they only socialize with their own species. I like keeping my fish happy. In my experience, a happy fish is a pretty fish, a healthy fish, and a fish that will come up to the glass and say g'morning.

#10 Guest_NotThePainter_*

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 05:57 PM

Oh, I remember what I meant to ask... In this setup, is the powerhead heat likely to be a problem? I can try and design something with external powerheads but that seems to have an awful failure mode. Internal powerheads are much safer.

#11 Guest_NotThePainter_*

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 06:01 PM

Oh, I remember what I meant to ask... In this setup, is the powerhead heat likely to be a problem? I can try and design something with external powerheads but that seems to have an awful failure mode. Internal powerheads are much safer.

I think I can answer my own question... If I use two of these, http://www.thatpetpl...i/7/product.web , I'll have over 500 gallon/hour moved at a cost of 24 watts. And a 24 watt heater isn't going to do much to a 75 gallon tank.

#12 Guest_gerald_*

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 06:07 PM

How about golden-ear killie, F.chrysotus? The black-speckled form is especially nice, and not as rowdy as studfish. You find them mostly in fairly still water, but they seem to enjoy moderate current in a tank. Also, I watched bluefin and rainwater killies in surprisingly fast water at Rock Spring a few miles north of Apopka FL. There's dense Val beds they can retreat into when tired, but much of the time I watched they were IN the current right at the edge of the Val, chasing and feeding.

#13 Michael Wolfe

Board of Directors

North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 22 November 2011 - 07:31 PM

OK, I read your original and all the responses and agree with most everything, but do have a few comments. First, you definitely can do this in a 75. I always have a nice mix of shiners and darters in my 75, and it works great. After about a week, if you are lucky, the darters will begin to notice flake (particularly if you get a high quality earthworm flake) and then you have a very easy tank to feed.

I would suggest that you don't really need the topminnow (although I have kept chrysotus with my shiners and in your set up they would find a place to hang out in the val where the current would be naturally less and cruise around just a little... until you feed the tank and then they get right in there and get their fair share)

But let me suggest an alternative... Bluehead Chub... Nocomis leptocephalus... a fish that grows larger and is not quite as colorful, but certainly has a great look... and the perfect add to a hydrophlox biotope. When smaller they have bright red fins... when larger, they are brassy and have blue heads.

And a couple of other comments from your original post.

Your temps will be fine, except you need to air condition round the clock in the worst of the summer and add the air stone.
Try a soil substrate under the sand.
Do not silicone rocks into place... there is no point and the fish will move them around slightly as they forage between them
Do not boil rocks (it wastes your time and annoys the rocks)

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

#14 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 07:59 PM

[*]Try a soil substrate under the sand.

Vallisneria is one of the very few, rare plants that supposedly grows well in just sand.

NotThePainter, what Michael Wolfe is probably referring to is that sand is pure silicon dioxide, as and such does not have the nutrient content necessary to support most rooted plant life. Calcium, iron, magnesium, etc. Sand lacks these and other minerals. That's why a lot of people who grow plants use soil from their back yard under gravel or sand. I myself use kitty litter (the kind that's pure baked ground clay, no added clumping chemicals). But because vallisneria is a special rooted plant that does not need supplementation, and because anubias is not a plant that enjoys its roots being buried, this setup does not need to be like other planted tanks. You don't need a nutrient rich substrate; your original sand design works great for the plants you listed. However, if you ever do want to switch to a rooted plant, it might be nice to have some minerals in your ground. You can either set up the tank with the possibility of housing rooted plants now (add soil or kitty litter or Fluorite™ under your planned sand and rock) or you can add fertilizer sticks later. But I should say that adding fertilizer is a pain because you have to do it a few times a month, versus initially adding a substrate with a high enough cation exchange capacity that it would maintain its nutrient content over time.

Here's some supplemental reading for you if you're interested. If you're planning on staying with just vals and anubias, then sand is fine and this doesn't matter. Link: http://www.thekrib.c...rate-jamie.html Another plant that I have found grows fine in just sand is Najas guadalupensis which is, by the way, native to North America.

#15 Michael Wolfe

Board of Directors

North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 22 November 2011 - 09:21 PM

I know I shouldn't reply twice before the original poster says anything back... but... why didn't one of us say Mobile Logperch!? That would be a great addition to your overall stream tank... a larger darter... and another reason to not boil or glue your rocks! I have had these guys in a 75 before and they were great... flipping stones and such... what a cool natural behaviour.

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

#16 Guest_frogwhacker_*

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 09:30 PM

The set up I have for my 75 gallon tank is somewhat similar to the one you are describing. The main difference is that my flow is pulled from the top and routed to the bottom with PVC to create the stream riffle effect for the fish. My water stays around 70 F. At that temperature my rainbow darter doesn't have as strong of colors as I would like, but my male banded darter seems to stay colored up well. My rainbow darter is quite an aggressive eater and is the only darter in the tank that actively competes with the bigeye chubs at feeding time. I've been feeding a mixture of bloodworms, mysis shrimp and brine shrimp(all frozen). The fish in this tank include my male rainbow darter(Etheostoma caeruleum), 3 banded darters(Etheostoma zonale), a logperch darter(Percina caprodes), 5 bigeye chubs(Hybopsis amblops) and a young longear sunfish(Lepomis megalotis). All seem to get along well now, but the longear may have to eventually be removed.

Micheal's suggestion here of soil under the sand is a set up that I've been having success with in my 75 gallon tank. Most of my substrate is soil capped with sand and it seems to be growing a variety of plants well. I haven't needed to run a filter on this tank. Just the plants and some circulation seem to be doing the trick. Ammonia, nitrite, and nitrates are all zero.

Not sure if this information helps much, but I just wanted to let you know that I'm having success with a similar set up. I just wish I could keep my water temperature cool enough to show off the colors on my rainbow darter, but I hate to have to buy a chiller to do it.

Best wishes.

Steve.

#17 Guest_FirstChAoS_*

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 01:42 AM

Awesome Not The Painter, Nice to see another New Englander join. I love your town (had an awesome karaoke night their last October). And if you plan on heading to NH to get the rocks this spring I may help you and maybe show you a few of our fish as well. You may very well get hooked on a tessy darter or a long nosed dace to your tank.

#18 Guest_frigginchi_*

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 07:11 AM

My buddies rainbow darters do fine in his tropical aquarium. The temps are around 78 degrees. They love eating ramshorn snails, pond snails and baby cherry shrimp.

Posted Image

#19 Guest_NotThePainter_*

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 07:34 AM

How about golden-ear killie, F.chrysotus? The black-speckled form is especially nice, and not as rowdy as studfish. You find them mostly in fairly still water, but they seem to enjoy moderate current in a tank. Also, I watched bluefin and rainwater killies in surprisingly fast water at Rock Spring a few miles north of Apopka FL. There's dense Val beds they can retreat into when tired, but much of the time I watched they were IN the current right at the edge of the Val, chasing and feeding.

The F. chrysotus is a pretty fish! Not in your face like the Rainbows, but nice. Also good to hear you've seen the Bluefin in current. The tank would be designed to have some quieter areas, probably created with big rocks so it would be a resting spot in the lee.

#20 Guest_NotThePainter_*

Guests

Posted 23 November 2011 - 07:41 AM

OK, I read your original and all the responses and agree with most everything, but do have a few comments. First, you definitely can do this in a 75. I always have a nice mix of shiners and darters in my 75, and it works great. After about a week, if you are lucky, the darters will begin to notice flake (particularly if you get a high quality earthworm flake) and then you have a very easy tank to feed.

Flake would make my life easier, but I realize that I might not be able to do that and I accept that. But good to know!

I would suggest that you don't really need the topminnow (although I have kept chrysotus with my shiners and in your set up they would find a place to hang out in the val where the current would be naturally less and cruise around just a little... until you feed the tank and then they get right in there and get their fair share)

What do you mean by topminnow, the shiner or the killie?

But let me suggest an alternative... Bluehead Chub... Nocomis leptocephalus... a fish that grows larger and is not quite as colorful, but certainly has a great look... and the perfect add to a hydrophlox biotope. When smaller they have bright red fins... when larger, they are brassy and have blue heads.

Boy, that's a wild looking head! But the max size makes me not consider it. And the words, earlier I had to look up loitc, not hydrophlox? Yikes...

And a couple of other comments from your original post.
Your temps will be fine, except you need to air condition round the clock in the worst of the summer and add the air stone.
Try a soil substrate under the sand.
Do not silicone rocks into place... there is no point and the fish will move them around slightly as they forage between them
Do not boil rocks (it wastes your time and annoys the rocks)

The silicone is for the larger rock structures so they don't collapse, that's all. Love the boil comment!