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Red line on tail fin edge?

Started by Guest_EricaWieser_* , Nov 27 2011 09:07 PM

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27 replies to this topic

#1 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 27 November 2011 - 09:07 PM

What kind of disease could cause a red line on the edge of a fish's caudal fin?

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#2 Guest_Ken_*

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Posted 27 November 2011 - 11:28 PM

Erica, the first thing I'd check for is an ammonia spike.

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#3 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 12:20 AM

Is there anything else it could be?

Edited by EricaWieser, 28 November 2011 - 01:02 AM.

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#4 Guest_az9_*

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 05:13 AM

Is there anything else it could be?

There are lots of bacterial pathogens it could be. The key is keeping stress levels down to prevent facultative pathogens as in the aforementioned ammonia spike. Do you use any NACL to temper osmotic stress and keep parasites at bay? As little a 0.02 percent salt can do wonders. In aquaculture we call it the the aspirin of aquaculture. I keep my tanks that have heavy fish loads vs. aquariums at 0.2 percent (2ppt; 2000 ppm; 2 gm/l).

In aquaculture we also say it's all about the water. Keep the water parameters right and the fish will do well.

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#5 Guest_dmarkley_*

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 12:27 PM

Is there anything else it could be?

Are you certain it is something bad? Maybe it's just coloration.

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#6 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 03:35 PM

Are you certain it is something bad? Maybe it's just coloration.

It's a male, and he's stopped attempting to breed with the females. That's what making me think it's something bad. He's got much less energy than he used to, and appears stressed.

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#7 Guest_Ken_*

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 04:13 PM

It's a male, and he's stopped attempting to breed with the females. That's what making me think it's something bad. He's got much less energy than he used to, and appears stressed.

Did you check your water Erica? The reason I suggested this is because when the parameters spike especially ammonia it will "burn" the fine edges of the fins causing them to bleed at the ends AND worse the filaments of the gills will be getting burnt which will make it harder for the fish to breathe. Is he breathing fast? Or staying near or at the surface? Secondary are the bacterial infections frome the open wounds. Being lethargic would also be another indicator.

Edited by Ken, 28 November 2011 - 04:14 PM.

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#8 Guest_gerald_*

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 04:27 PM

If it was due to ammonia she's be seeing stress symptoms on most of the fish. If it's just one fish, my guess is either an infection or some non-infectious problem causing organ failure. Is he breathing harder than normal?

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#9 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 05:20 PM

His gills are flapping a little bit faster than normal and he's at the surface of the water. But the other 10-15 fish in the tank are fine.

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#10 Guest_Ken_*

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 05:36 PM

If it was due to ammonia she's be seeing stress symptoms on most of the fish. If it's just one fish, my guess is either an infection or some non-infectious problem causing organ failure. Is he breathing harder than normal?

Good point. Are all of the fish the same species?

Edited by Ken, 28 November 2011 - 05:36 PM.

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#11 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 05:51 PM

yes

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#12 Guest_az9_*

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 09:50 PM

It's a male, and he's stopped attempting to breed with the females. That's what making me think it's something bad. He's got much less energy than he used to, and appears stressed.

Maybe he's just wore out? :-)

Seriously though breeding can be very stressful to male fish. Some even die from the stress.

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#13 Guest_nativeplanter_*

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 09:52 PM

This still sounds like a bacterial infection to me. If nothing else, I'd remove him from the tank and put him in quarrantine. Then make sure your housekeeping is up to par for the tank itself.

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#14 Guest_az9_*

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 09:55 PM

If it was due to ammonia she's be seeing stress symptoms on most of the fish. If it's just one fish, my guess is either an infection or some non-infectious problem causing organ failure. Is he breathing harder than normal?

BTW labored or difficult breathing is known a dyspnea by fish pathologists (maybe you guys already knew). I'm reading myself to sleep at night from a book called Fish Disease Diagnosis and Treatment by Edward J. Noga. I have two fish disease texts and this one is by far the best. One of my goals is to set up a fish pathology lab for myself one of these days.

Edited by az9, 28 November 2011 - 09:56 PM.

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#15 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 10:36 PM

I did a huge water change when I noticed him sick on Sunday after getting back from vacation. The water has for sure been good on ammonia since then, if it wasn't before. With no test kit, I don't know what it was at on Sunday, although now it's definitely 0 ppm (I'm doing frequent water changes). But even though there's definitely no ammonia in the water any more, he's gotten worse. The red line only covered 3/4 of his fin on Sunday and now it is on 100% of the edge of the fin. Would ammonia poisoning keep progressing like this even after the water got cleaner?

On Tuesday the filter stopped flowing but remained wet for six hours or so. I didn't feed the tank from Wednesday to mid day Sunday, as I was on vacation, and the lights were left shining on the live plants. What confuses me is even if there was an ammonia spike from the stagnant water in the filter killing the bacteria (can that happen?), wouldn't the growing plants and the lack of feeding have taken care of it? And the other fish would be sick too?

I don't know what's wrong with him or why he keeps getting worse. I wish there was something I could do for him, poor guy. That blood red line on the edge of his tail is creeping me out because I don't know what's causing it.

If it is a bacteria, how do I stop it from spreading to my other tanks? Is there any way to diagnose it more specifically?

@NativePlanter: I'm taking your quarantine suggestion to heart. Although I don't have a spare fully cycled tank to put him in, I can make sure I don't touch the net from the diseased tank to my currently not-infected tank. *nods*

Edited by EricaWieser, 28 November 2011 - 10:45 PM.

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#16 Guest_frogwhacker_*

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 11:39 PM

Although I don't have a spare fully cycled tank to put him in, I can make sure I don't touch the net from the diseased tank to my currently not-infected tank. *nods*

I'm not sure if this will help in your situation, but here's what I do when I need an emergency tank set up: I take a spare empty tank and fill it at least half with water from a larger, established tank and even add a little substrate from that tank, then I fill the rest with tap water. I usually run more filters than I need on most of my tanks so I can use one from another tank that will work on the new one. This gives me an immediately cycled tank with water that won't be starving the bacteria in the filter. The tank that I used the water from gets a water change that never hurts anyway. I don't know if this method will lend itself to your situation, but I thought I'd mention it to try to help out any way I can. Good Luck. I'm sure sorry to hear about your sick fish.

Steve.

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#17 Guest_az9_*

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 05:30 AM

I would add a 0.5 percent solution of uniodized salt to quarantine tank to relieve osmotic stress. O.K. I'll stop harping about the salt.

Maybe it's his time to check out age wise and the stress of spawning was what put him over the edge?

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#18 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 10:39 AM

Maybe it's his time to check out age wise and the stress of spawning was what put him over the edge?

He's only one third to one half of the life span for his species.

Update:
When I checked on him this morning, the red line on the edge of his tail had fallen off. If one didn't know better, it would look like he was normal, except for him staying at the surface and acting distressed. The other fish still show no signs of stress.
This is a very weird disease. I'm just glad he's still alive.

Edited by EricaWieser, 29 November 2011 - 10:40 AM.

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#19 Guest_gerald_*

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 11:15 AM

I REALLY doubt ammonia molecules last more than a few seconds in Erica's tank, with heaps of fast-growing plants and a small load of very small fish. I also dont thik this is an issue of the tank being recently "infected" with a pathogenic bacteria. I DO think this particular fish is having immunological suppression issues (dont know why) and is thus being attacked by some bacteria, virus, sporozoan, or something that's probably been in the tank a long time and is normally not a problem for otherwise healthy fish. Having said that, if a sick fish becomes a breeding ground for whatever this disease might be, then otherwise healthy fish can be overwhelmed by it, so it's better to remove the sick guy.

One pygmy sunfish doesnt need a cycled tank. Just put him in a plastic shoebox with some hornwort or javamoss (and light) and the plants will easily uptake his tiny ammonia output. I've raised 15-20 gilberti fry up to 1/2" this way in one shoebox, with moss or Najas as the only "filter".

I follow frogwhacker's strategy of always keeping extra filters running (air-powered box or sponge) in tanks with high fish load, so I can always set up an emergency tank or bucket whenever I need.

As far as the filter bacteria dying when flow stops, it depends on the filter design, how much bacteria are in the filter, and biochemical oxygen demand (BOD) in the water. A closed canister filter on a densely stocked tank of bluegills (high BOD) might go anoxic in less than an hour. Just guessing based on Erica's fish vs plant load I think yours could go for a few days. Hang-on filters that siphon back into the tank when power is off can go several days as long as the media doesnt dry out.

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#20 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 12:00 PM

I think I agree that his immune system must be compromised by something. It's actually not a pygmy sunfish, it's a non-native, but I was concerned because pathogens travel quite a lot in a fish rooms and I didn't want some sort of hemorrhagic life form to travel to the tank with the Elassoma gilberti. I've heard of different hemorrhaging pathogens but don't have any specific knowledge of them, so I would have no idea how to diagnose something like that.

I took a video of the fish on Sunday but hesitated posting it here because he's a non-native. But I guess if it would help people to tell me ammonia poisoning versus hemorrhagic pathogen, I'll share it. I don't want him infecting my other tanks, and I wouldn't want to give fish to people if my tanks are indeed infected with something awful, like VHS. Could anyone tell me what this is? youtube.com/watch?v=hac1_evAkdE