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F1 Redfin Pickerel


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#1 Guest_NVCichlids_*

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 03:14 PM

I noticed on aquabid that there are F1 redfin pickerels. I was wondering if the seller (rainbowrunner) was a member here and if so, if they could explain the breeding set ups and raising of the young redfins. I am very interested in reading about this. I know there was a thread a while back breeding some pickerel in tank, but there hadn't been updates in a while.

Just curious!

Nate


BTW, the auction for the F1's
http://www.aquabid.c...tive

#2 Guest_Skipjack_*

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 09:54 PM

F1 refers to a hybrid. What were these hybridized with? If the seller cannot answer that, probably not a NANFA member.

#3 Michael Wolfe

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 10:21 PM

F1 refers to a hybrid. What were these hybridized with? If the seller cannot answer that, probably not a NANFA member.


I thought F1 meant First Generation of Captive Raised? At least when talking about captive raised wild animals... like herps and fish and such. At least that is the terminology I seem to remember some of the better breeder people (not me, thats for sure) using... with F2, F3, etc being subsequent generations.
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#4 Guest_Skipjack_*

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 10:32 PM

http://www.biology-o...y/F1_GENERATION
Many use the term incorrectly.

#5 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 10:32 PM

F1 refers to a hybrid. What were these hybridized with?

F0, F1, and F2 are not necessarily hybrid nomenclature; they just designate the generation number.
F0 is the animal that you start with. It was not born at your facility.
F1 is the first generation of babies you raise. At least one parent must be an F0.
F2 is the second generation of babies you raise. At least one parent must be an F1.

For example, let's say I catch two sunfish. Those are my F0 sunfish. The babies that they have are F1 sunfish. If the F1 sunfish babies, male and female, have offspring with themselves, then that would be F2. Therefore the F1 designation in the auction refers to the 1st generation of offspring.

Hybridization bloodline terminology does use the F designation, but on top of that it adds a letter (A,B,C) that designate how far from the hybridization event the animal is. This website explains the A, B, and C designations used when creating hybrid crosses. In this example case the hybridization is between serval (Lepitailurus serval) and the domestic cat (Felis catus).

The Savannah is created by mating an African Serval to a domestic cat. The offspring of such a mating is always an "A" registered cat. In this case the cat would be first generation, i.e., F1. Savannah males are sterile until the 5th generation (F5) so to create an F2 you would mate an F1 female to a domestic or an F5 Savannah. If you mated the F1A female to the domestic the offspring would always be an "A" registered F2, i.e., F2A because one parent is not a savannah.

A "B" registered Savannah is created by the mating of two "A" registered Savannahs
Both parents of a "B" registered Savannah are Savannahs but at least one grandparent is a different breed. You could create a "B" registered Savannah by mating an F1A Savannah to an F5 Savannah.

A "C" registered Savannah is created by the mating of two "B" registered Savannahs
All parents and grandparents of a "C" registered Savannah are Savannahs but at least one great grandparent is a different breed.

A "SBT" registered Savannah is created by the mating of two "C" registered Savannahs
All parents, grandparents, and great grandparents of a "SBT" registered Savannah are Savannahs so it is impossible to create an "SBT" Savannah before the fourth (F4) generation. "SBT" stands for Stud Book Traditional and Tica considers a "SBT" cat a pure bred cat.


This table shows the "letter code" result of various breeding
Male Serval x non-Savannah female = F1A kittens
Male Serval x Savannah female = F1A kittens
F1A Savannah x F5A Savannah male = F2B kittens
F2B Savannah x F5B Savannah male = F3C kittens
F3C Savannah x F5C Savannah male = F4 SBT kittens
F6C Savannah x F5 SBT Savannah male = F5 SBT kittens
F1A Savannah x non-Savannah male = F2A kittens
F1A Savannah x F5C Savannah male = F2B kittens
F2B Savannah x F5A Savannah male = F3B kittens
F3C Savannah x F5B Savannah male = F4C kittens
F7B Savannah x F5C Savannah male = F6C kittens
F4 SBT Savannah x non-Savannah male = F5A kittens
F3C Savannah x non-Savannah male = F4A kittens
non-Savannah x F5C Savannah male = F6A kittens

http://www.dumaexotics.com/ABCorSBT/ABCorSBT.html

Edit:
So, I just looked up on wikipedia and technically it says that the historical meaning of F1 has been for hybrid crosses. But I've never known a breeder to use any system other than F0, F1, F2, etc to designate their offspring, even when not hybrid. It's kind of been adopted in the animal breeder community to help us designate generation number and keep track of our animals' genetics.

Lol, I've been using the term 'wrong' for years. But what else are we supposed to call our wild, first, and second generation animals?

Edited by EricaWieser, 12 January 2012 - 10:56 PM.


#6 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 11:04 PM

F0, F1, and F2 are not necessarily hybrid nomenclature; they just designate the generation number.
F0 is the animal that you start with. It was not born at your facility.
F1 is the first generation of babies you raise. At least one parent must be an F0.
F2 is the second generation of babies you raise. At least one parent must be an F1.

For example, let's say I catch two sunfish. Those are my F0 sunfish. The babies that they have are F1 sunfish. If the F1 sunfish babies, male and female, have offspring with themselves, then that would be F2. Therefore the F1 designation in the auction refers to the 1st generation of offspring.

...

Edit:
So, I just looked up on wikipedia and technically it says that the historical meaning of F1 has been for hybrid crosses. But I've never known a breeder to use any system other than F0, F1, F2, etc to designate their offspring, even when not hybrid. It's kind of been adopted in the animal breeder community to help us designate generation number and keep track of our animals' genetics.

Lol, I've been using the term 'wrong' for years. But what else are we supposed to call our wild, first, and second generation animals?

I figured it out! When people are using F0 to designate the fish they catch, that is the correct nomenclature because what you're doing is saying that you're assuming that these two fish are 'distinct', also known as unrelated. So what you're doing is 'hybridizing' two unrelated fish from a large and genetically diverse species. Ahah! It is the right term after all. And that's why the F1 generation isn't 'distinct' from one another; they're brother and sister, so there is not a distinct-ness to those fish's genes. Now it makes sense why people call it 'outcrossing' when you mate a non-sibling to a fish from your F1 generation. You are in essence creating a new hybridization, a new F1 generation. The expected thing to do would be to brother-sister breed to get the F2, which would further mix the traits from the two distinct F0 fish you started with.

Got it. I understand it now. *nods* The term was being used correctly after all. "Hybrid" can mean the offspring of two fish of the same species that are not closely related.

#7 Guest_Skipjack_*

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 11:39 PM

No matter how you word it is still incorrect.



If I spawn two bluegills then their offspring are bluegills. If I spawn a bluegill x green sunfish, it is an F1. When I cross a pair of the greengills, they are F2, and so on down the line.

Edited by Skipjack, 13 January 2012 - 12:02 AM.


#8 Michael Wolfe

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 07:07 AM

So Matt, is there a correct term to designate captive-bred generations? Or is everything just called 'captive-bred'?
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

#9 Guest_Skipjack_*

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 08:32 AM

So Matt, is there a correct term to designate captive-bred generations? Or is everything just called 'captive-bred'?

Captive bred is the correct term. The F1 designation gets thrown around a lot in the reptile world because of the crossing of different color morphs.

#10 Guest_NVCichlids_*

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 09:06 AM

interesting because with all my years of wild cichlid breeding (tanganyikans, west africans, etc.) we used the F- system to noted how far away from the wild caught fish these are. So when I bred my wildcaught fish, their offspring were F1's. I had never heard otherwise, but am eager to know if i were to sell some fish as F1 captive bred, if you think that would explain enough, or if I should just sell them as "captive bred".

All aside, i think the seller (will contact him) is selling captive bred young. I would hope they are pure as there is no reason to hybridize these as they are beautiful just the way they are. No other fish from this family (IMO) has the coloring, size, and overall attractivenss that these have and any other blood into it would just destroy the best line possible.

* as another side note, off to contact my contact at the DNR to see if I can legally own one of these..*

#11 Guest_fundulus_*

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 11:34 AM

Mendel's original use of P, F1, F2, was to designate different generations in a "hybrid" breeding program. By "hybrid" he meant crossing two individuals of the same species who differed at one or more phenotypes, i.e. crossing white flowered plants with purple flowered plants. So in a narrow sense "hybrid" is correct, but it's different from common usage.

#12 Guest_junker68_*

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 10:05 AM

I just purchased two redfins from him and he has excellent communication, fair and honest. All arrived alive and well, great packaging. Would recomend 110%.

Dwayne

#13 Guest_Rainbowrunner_*

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 01:04 PM

I noticed on aquabid that there are F1 redfin pickerels. I was wondering if the seller (rainbowrunner) was a member here and if so, if they could explain the breeding set ups and raising of the young redfins. I am very interested in reading about this. I know there was a thread a while back breeding some pickerel in tank, but there hadn't been updates in a while.

Just curious!

Nate


BTW, the auction for the F1's
http://www.aquabid.c...tive




Hi Nate, Keeping a few pickerel in a fish tank is very easy if fed properly and if fish are of equal size and in a large tank. HOWEVER!!!!! The successful commercial breeding procedure for this species is very difficult. While sampling west of the Okefenokee swamp in Georgia my team noticed that the Redfin pickerel's fins were MUCH redder than anywhere else we've sampled, further DNA testing suggested to a high degree that this population had become "stranded" or isolated from it's nearest cogener Esox Niger, a lack of hybridization which seems to explain the opacity of the red fin coloration noticed in this particular population. The length of time this population has been isolated remains unclear, however it is clear it was apparently long enough to develop without genetic dilution from E.niger. Or predation from species that would find red fins a more attractive meal than identical fish with transparent fins.

So we decided to use this line for our breeding project. All that was required for this broodstock's removal from the wild was a Georgia fishing license. Below are some difficulties encountered.

A. This fish swells up with increased salinity, and is highly susceptible to gram negative bacterial infection (cottontail) at zero salinity.

B. This fish (en masse) consumes an astonishing amount of baitfish for proper growth and roe production. Baitfish must be produced separately just for this fishes food. This fish will not consume anything dead, or pelletized.

C. This fish requires an extremely diverse amount of prey species and age classes for proper prey size selection & availability.

D. This fish is extremely aggressive & cannibalistic if proper space is not given. Ditto prey availability.

E. Larval stage fry are fed green water cultures, then zooplankton, then mosquito larvae, then guppy fry, then different age classes of about 12+ different species of baitfish, only baitfish without spines on the dorsal and anal fins are utilized for safety reasons. Pickerel in the size range of 3-4" are trained to identify and consume grass shrimp. Grass shrimp can be gutloaded with natural color enhancing carotenoids. Enzymes in the fishes' liver break down the carotenoids into the pink, red & orange pigment molecules deposited in the fishes fins and body. Although manipulated, this color is all natural and will last the majority of the fishes life, especially on males. Just like a Flamingo that consumes pink shrimp, turns pink itself. These slightly "modified" fish are innocuous, and the effects will not persist past the first generation, thus not a hazard to wild populations if released. Let's also consider the role the lack of predators at the GA locality has on evolutionary traits, fish with "redder" fins are much more of a target than fish with transparent fins. If anything the color enhanced fish are at more of a disadvantage than their unaltered counterparts, thus more ecologically safe if an aquarium release were to occur. All these things and more must be taken into consideration when offering fish to the general public. Especially fish capable of surviving our winters.

I do not breed this fish in fish tanks. I have a commercial production facility geared towards rare & native fish. Offering this fancy pickerel year round is just a way of "showing off" our facilities' prowess and making new business contacts. Although very satisfying to breed an extremely difficult fish commercially, not our bread and butter. Large state contracts for state endangered fish for restocking purposes are our main bread and butter. Federally endangered species are NOT produced except by federal permit. During a production contract, we can produce in excess of 300,000 fish every 18 months, which is not bad for a 5 acre facility. When not under a production contract, we keep the amount of fish to a bare minimum to conserve water quality. The fish are trained en masse specifically to survive in the wild once released. There is also a way to make them relatively immune to most parasites and diseases, that costs extra, but gives the fish a HUGE advantage once released for legal restocking purposes. But we won't go into that too much as that information is proprietary.

Hope I answered all of your questions, The Redfin pickerel makes a really AWESOME pet! I still get a RUSH every time I feed one. I really hate to sound unprofessional, but the only way to describe it, is like the pickerel is saying F__YOU [-X when it attacks it's prey. Its truly amazing, the ferocity is extreme.

#14 Guest_Drew_*

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 02:50 PM

B. This fish (en masse) consumes an astonishing amount of baitfish for proper growth and roe production. Baitfish must be produced separately just for this fishes food. This fish will not consume anything dead, or pelletized.


I, and others, have successfully trained pickerel to take dead food and pellets. Pickerel I've kept in the past would consistently eat raw shrimp, FD shrimp, and high quality carnivore pellets (Hikari floating type). I've also had them eat shrimp pellets that were meant for a madtom in the tank.

It takes time and patience to do so but is worth it in the end. Not having to breed, collect, or purchase food will increase the satisfaction of keeping such a fish. I do however recommend feeding live food while the fish is growing the first few months. I've had success converting them once they reach 4-5".

#15 Guest_Rainbowrunner_*

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 04:46 PM

I, and others, have successfully trained pickerel to take dead food and pellets. Pickerel I've kept in the past would consistently eat raw shrimp, FD shrimp, and high quality carnivore pellets (Hikari floating type). I've also had them eat shrimp pellets that were meant for a madtom in the tank.

It takes time and patience to do so but is worth it in the end. Not having to breed, collect, or purchase food will increase the satisfaction of keeping such a fish. I do however recommend feeding live food while the fish is growing the first few months. I've had success converting them once they reach 4-5".


You know full well I didn't mean to imply a pickerel will never, ever eat other than live foods. It's just not feasible on the production level. That would be a recipe for full scale cannibalism.

You do realize starvation/hunger is a key motivating factor in prey selection, i would not recommend other nanfa members starve/withold food, of their pickerels in order to get the fish desperate enough to take a pellet, that would be unethical, in my opinion. I would not recommend starving a predatory fish just to make life convenient for the fishkeepeer. I'm not saying you starve your fish!!! I'm just saying it's a possible unintended consequence of trying to feed a predator unnatural foods.

Most people don't buy a pickerel to feed them pellets. They buy Oscars for that. Studies have shown that fish that are fed live foods are in better psychological health, than control groups. Do you really get more satisfaction feeding a pickerel pellets than watching him devour another fish? If any of my pickerel customers express an interest in training a pickerel on pellets I would strongly advise against it, especially if there are any tankmates that might get caught in the crosshairs.

#16 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 06:15 PM

Studies have shown that fish that are fed live foods are in better psychological health, than control groups.

I'm totally not involved in this conversation at all (pellets vs live food), I just want to see a study that measures fish psychological health. For realsies.

#17 Guest_Rainbowrunner_*

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 07:13 PM

I'm totally not involved in this conversation at all (pellets vs live food), I just want to see a study that measures fish psychological health. For realsies.


Lol, Erica I understand your skepticism. But it's true and it makes logical sense that a fish will have to "exercise" it's brain more in the pursuit & outwit of live prey. Keeps 'em sharp! If & when I come across that information again I will post it for you.

Edited by Rainbowrunner, 17 January 2012 - 07:16 PM.


#18 Guest_steve_*

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 07:59 PM

Studies have shown that fish that are fed live foods are in better psychological health, than control groups.

I just want to see a study that measures fish psychological health.


Lol, Erica I understand your skepticism. But it's true and it makes logical sense that a fish will have to "exercise" it's brain more in the pursuit & outwit of live prey. Keeps 'em sharp! If & when I come across that information again I will post it for you.


I can only speak for myself here, but I'm not asking out of skepticism, I just think it would be a totally interesting read. Please do post a link to it or something if you do find it. Thanks.

Steve.

#19 Guest_Rainbowrunner_*

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 03:23 PM

I can only speak for myself here, but I'm not asking out of skepticism, I just think it would be a totally interesting read. Please do post a link to it or something if you do find it. Thanks.

Steve.


Steve, If I remember correctly, It went something like this; Basically, the fish fed live foods routinely found their way through a maze, where their pellet eating counterparts struggled.

There is a wealth of knowledge suggesting a clear established link between a fishes mental health and live food. Even goldfish appear profoundly happier when they can sift thru sand versus a bare bottom tank. Sometimes people underestimate fish. They act predictable and robotic at times, but are capable of learning and exhibiting psychological states, such as fear, panic, aggression, social behavior. Most fish appear more psychologically healthy when fed live foods,esp predators, it appears to satisfy a primal desire to kill and eat something that wriggles, just as they are more psychologically healthy when given plenty of places to hide, makes them feel safe. Just as schooling fish are happiest when kept in large groups, also makes them feel safe. So why is it so difficult to conceive that the abundance of live food would not have that same effect, & make them feel safe? Not to mention the mental exercise exerted in the aforementioned pursuit and outwit of live prey. I feed my omnivores a mix of 10%fresh, 10%live & 80% pellets in 46%protien. The pellets appear to have the carbs necessary to satisfy a fishes hunger longer than fresh & live foods do. <- I suppose that comment will become the subject of the next discussion. ](*,)

Here are a few links I briefly found:

Go to: Collected Live Foods; paragraph 5
http://www.fishlore....dForDummies.htm

Whole article:
http://www.reuters.c...E55F7OT20090617

I haven't found the exact study with the maze, but I think you get the point by now.

#20 Guest_Drew_*

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 04:59 PM

RR, I completely understand and agree with you regarding live vs non-live food. But once you take a fish out of its natural environment, all the "rules" go out the door. It isn't natural for a pickerel or any other predator to be in a glass cage. Yes, it is "fun" to watch a predator to attack a bait fish. But that isn't the whole experience of keeping a fish in an aquarium.

Your previous statement about having to provide live food for these fish is so just absolute. In your case it is very much true. Those keeping them at home will often find a easier, cheaper, and safer option with a non-live staple diet and compliment that with live food.



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