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Which books mention multiple common names (especially odd, local ones)


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#1 olaf

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 11:01 PM

So many of the Fishes of ______ books provide only one common name, and that annoys me when I know there are sometimes dozens of good ones.
Bonus points for books or articles that print the weird, offensive ones.
I'm particularly interested in sucker names right now.
Thanks,
Olaf
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#2 Guest_daveneely_*

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 07:44 AM

Most newer books follow AFS (and later ASIH) in using their "officially sanctioned" names. Dig back further (pre-1960s) and you'll get to the good stuff. Rafinesque (1820) is loaded...

Alas, I don't think the colloquial name for Trinectes has made it into print...

#3 Guest_daveneely_*

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 07:46 AM

Alas, I don't think the colloquial name for Trinectes has made it into print...


...and I wouldn't recommend a google search for that term, either!

#4 Guest_travishaas_*

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 09:27 AM

Fishes of Wisconsin (1983) by Becker provides a good list of regional names for each species, including a few suckers.

#5 olaf

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 10:34 AM

I do have Becker waiting in the wings. I though I remembered that it included multiple names--just haven't gotten that far into the stack yet.

I have found that the old (1800s) books have a ton of names, and I'm using a lot of them, but I keep hoping to find more current sources for names that are actually in use today. Plus, they're sometimes a bit confused/confusing about which species they really mean, and there are all those "species" that we no longer consider species.

Is there an explicit "policy" for common name usage? Where can I find out more about that? That would certainly blunt, or at least redirect, some criticisms I've been spouting lately.

Thanks!
More suggestions welcome.
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#6 Guest_mywan_*

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 12:22 PM

Fishbase.us has a common name link that list multiple common names from various countries. For http://www.fishbase....-maculatus.html (Trinectes maculatus) the common name link http://www.fishbase....&StockCode=4456 list 24 names from around the world.

Edited by mywan, 16 January 2012 - 12:22 PM.


#7 Guest_Dustin_*

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 01:26 PM

Fishes of the Okefenokee Swamp by Laerm and Freeman has several, sometimes very odd, common names for each species. Won't be much help with the suckers though.

#8 olaf

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 02:09 PM

Though I haven't seen it, I've heard that book is good for names. Though it probably would never be much use to me, I've considered getting a copy just to see what names it has.

Fishes of the Okefenokee Swamp by Laerm and Freeman has several, sometimes very odd, common names for each species. Won't be much help with the suckers though.




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#9 Guest_Newt_*

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 01:01 PM

Not really helpful, but I saw a print of a "calico bass" (crappie) at an antique store yesterday.

#10 Michael Wolfe

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Posted 21 January 2012 - 11:07 AM

Though I haven't seen it, I've heard that book is good for names. Though it probably would never be much use to me, I've considered getting a copy just to see what names it has.


Fishes of the Okefenokee Swamp does list two 'suckers'
Spotted Sucker Minytrema melanops but the only common name listed is 'sucker'
Lake Chubsucker Erimyzon sucetta with common names 'mullet, creek fish, sucker'

Which is not too interesting except for the 'mullet' name. As some of you know I am reading a lo of papers from the 1800s these days and I found that original descriptions from back then talk about whether people even knew about the fish (if it was not food, people didnt always pay attention) and if they did what they called it. Apparenetly here in North Georgia, Hypentelium were called Hog-mullet, Hog-molly, Crawl-a-bottom, and of course Hog sucker.
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

#11 olaf

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Posted 21 January 2012 - 12:16 PM

Fishes of the Okefenokee Swamp does list two 'suckers'
Spotted Sucker Minytrema melanops but the only common name listed is 'sucker'
Lake Chubsucker Erimyzon sucetta with common names 'mullet, creek fish, sucker'

Which is not too interesting except for the 'mullet' name. As some of you know I am reading a lo of papers from the 1800s these days and I found that original descriptions from back then talk about whether people even knew about the fish (if it was not food, people didnt always pay attention) and if they did what they called it. Apparenetly here in North Georgia, Hypentelium were called Hog-mullet, Hog-molly, Crawl-a-bottom, and of course Hog sucker.


Thanks for the Okefenokee info. You've saved me some digging!
"Mullet" is very common for all suckers in the older books. Second only to sucker, probably.

You're right about the 1800s sources. I especially enjoy how they'll break into scientific description to relate an anecdote, fishing technique or assessment of food value, and how the different authors have opposite ideas of which fish are good to eat.

Here's what I have on hogsuckers so far:

Tom Kwak, of NCSU, reports that in the Arkansas Ozarks the hogsucker is sometimes known as a preacher's prick, and Noel Burkhead of USGS says that in eastern Tennessee they're called hoovers (an obvious reference to the vacuum cleaner brand).
Cloutman and Olmsted give a number of names for the northern hogsucker (Hypentelium nigricans, and probably the other Hypentelium spp.): hog molly, hammerhead, horsefish, crawly-bottom, hog choker, black sucker, stoneroller, and spotted sucker.
Tomelleri and Eberle's list of hogsucker nicknames includes some I have seen nowhere else. After days of digging up the same old names in book after book, I am grateful for a bit of novelty: hogmolly, hognose sucker, hog mullet, crawl-a-bottom, stone toter, stone lugger, hammerhead, boxhead, pugamoo, and riffle sucker. (Since writing that, I've seen all those names elsewhere.)
Becker gives the following names for the hogsucker: hogmolly, hognose sucker, black sucker, stoneroller, spotted sucker, riffle sucker, bigheaded sucker, hammerhead sucker, hog mullet, crawl-a-bottom, stone lugger, stone toter, pugamoo
Iowa Fish and Fishing includes the following names for the hogsucker: black sucker, spotted sucker, riffle sucker, bigheaded sucker and stone roller.
Buffler and Dickson give most of the same names as the other sources: black horse, blue sucker, hogmolly, hognose sucker, black sucker, stoneroller, spotted sucker, riffle sucker, hammerhead sucker, hog mullet, crawl-a-bottom, stone lugger, stone toter, pugamoo, boxhead
The hogsucker (still listed as Catostomus nigricans in the sub-species hypentelium) is number 304 in the Check-list, and its common names are hog sucker, stone-roller, toter, crawl-a-bottom, hammer head, stone-lugger and hog molly.
Other names for the hogsucker must exist, and I'll continue to dig for them. Again, suggestions welcome.


I started out writing a little blog post, but it's gone out of control. It's getting too long even to be an article (as if there was some publication that would be interested in slang names for fish of such low esteem). There is a lot of duplication, so I'm going to work up some sort of table or chart to show all the sources and the names they include. That should shorten up the piece considerably. The problem is that I keep finding sources faster than I can type in the info. I'm waiting on some French names from Canada, too, and trying to think of a way to find more about what people in Mexico might call their various suckers.
Speaking of which, anyone have a good translation for "matalote," the general word for suckers in Mexico?

I have pages and pages of names for redhorses and Moxostoma in general, and pages more for all the other suckers. And I haven't even tackled the western species yet.
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#12 Michael Wolfe

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Posted 21 January 2012 - 03:19 PM

It's getting too long even to be an article (as if there was some publication that would be interested in slang names for fish of such low esteem).


Would make a great article in the AC! Write it up!
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

#13 Michael Wolfe

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Posted 21 January 2012 - 04:17 PM

Forgive me for being culturally insensitive, but I ran across this description of a small sucker by D. S. Jordan and could not resist adding it to this conversation... particularly for what it says about fish boys never really growing up... and the value that we seem to find in fishes that no one else care much about.
jumprocks.jpg
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

#14 olaf

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Posted 21 January 2012 - 04:27 PM

Would make a great article in the AC! Write it up!


That's tempting. If I can ever stop looking for more sources and get it into a manageable state I'll let whomever decides on such things take a look at it.


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#15 olaf

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Posted 21 January 2012 - 04:35 PM

Forgive me for being culturally insensitive, but I ran across this description of a small sucker by D. S. Jordan and could not resist adding it to this conversation... particularly for what it says about fish boys never really growing up... and the value that we seem to find in fishes that no one else care much about.
jumprocks.jpg


Love it.
I have that one highlighted in my PDF of that book. It's for another thing I've been writing that compiles the "attitude" stuff about suckers from the old books.
A lot of those books are pretty useless today for doing ID or finding solid facts, but they're fun to read and they tell us a lot about how people thought about fish and nature.
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#16 Guest_kalawatseti_*

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Posted 22 January 2012 - 02:37 PM

Check out two ancient common names for the Cutlips Minnow -- as reported by Jordan & Evermann in their Fishes of North and Middle America. I can imagine that in that day and age (1896) the authors had absolutely no reservations about printing such names.

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Edited by kalawatseti, 22 January 2012 - 02:38 PM.


#17 olaf

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Posted 22 January 2012 - 06:00 PM

This is a problem I'm running into as I write about this stuff. On the one hand, if I quote something offensive it's not coming from me--I'm just reporting it. On the other hand, I'm reporting it so it IS coming from me. I'm not yet sure how I'm going to handle it. I don't want my web page to become known for the wrong thing, but I don't like to censor myself. Maybe using images of old books is the thing to do. With a disclaimer saying don't click this thumbnail if you're going to be offended.

Check out two ancient common names for the Cutlips Minnow -- as reported by Jordan & Evermann in their Fishes of North and Middle America. I can imagine that in that day and age (1896) the authors had absolutely no reservations about printing such names.




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