Hi everyone. I'm new to the forum and have never kept NA natives before. My 30G planted has been up and running since November and I'm considering adding fish soon. There's nothing in there now except about 10 Nerite snails and a TON of tiny little ramshorn snails that never seem to get bigger. Tank is 30G, dimensions are 30 x 18 x 16, picture of current growth attached below. Plants are c. parva, c. spiralis (hard to see, on the left side under all the watter lettuce), c. wendtii, c. undulata, anubias b. nana and java fern. Still some plant additions to make (at the back on the right side) and the c. parva is going to take a while to come in, but overall I'm pretty happy where it is.

Anyway, I was considering a SA dwarf cichlid set up, but I'm also considering NA natives as an alternative. I don't have much access to these kinds of fish, but of the species I have been able to find, I was thinking about maybe a school of bluefin killies, a school of H. formosa, and maybe a few E. zonatum. Would something like this work? Or would it make sense to leave out the bluefin's? They look like beautiful fish but I'm not sure if they'd be too rowdy for the others.

Thanks, I've been enjoying reading through the forums so far!

Hello and welcome to the forums!

I have kept bluefins with banded pygmies and saw no aggression, but no breeding either. This was in a 10 gallon tank; things may be different in your bigger and well-planted tank. By most accounts, pygmies do best in a single-species tank (but see Erica Weiser's enormous E. gilberti thread on this forum).

You might also consider skipping the two tiny species and keeping bluefins and one of the Enneacanthus sunfish species (bluespotted, banded, blackbanded). Check legality, though; I know those guys are present but rare in some of the states up your way, and could be illegal to possess.

Hello and welcome to the forums!

I have kept bluefins with banded pygmies and saw no aggression, but no breeding either. This was in a 10 gallon tank; things may be different in your bigger and well-planted tank. By most accounts, pygmies do best in a single-species tank (but see Erica Weiser's enormous E. gilberti thread on this forum).

You might also consider skipping the two tiny species and keeping bluefins and one of the Enneacanthus sunfish species (bluespotted, banded, blackbanded). Check legality, though; I know those guys are present but rare in some of the states up your way, and could be illegal to possess.

Thanks for pointing out Erica's thread, got about half way through it. Really interesting read!

I'm still drawn to small fish. I like the way they look in bigger tanks. Maybe I'll look into a species tank for the pygmy sunfish. Is tank breeding normal for those guys?

It is normal, and desirable even if you don't intend to sell them; they just don't live very long, so you need them to reproduce.

The pygmy killifish, Leptolucania ommata is another nano-native that would do well in your setup, as would some of the small slackwater-dwelling darters like Etheostoma fusiforme, E. edwini, and E. gracile.

Oh hi. I see I've been mentioned.

Yup, I've got a 55 gallon tank with Elassoma gilberti. I agree that it looks cool to have tiny fish in a big tank
Gilberti and okefenokee are my favorite Elassoma. They're so pretty

Edited by EricaWieser, 19 January 2012 - 08:23 PM.

Great video, thanks for sharing.

Where do people generally find these fish? Collection is out for me, since I'm in new jersey and it's winter Only place I can find for NA natives in Jonah's Aquarium.

I was about to post some pictures of my planted 20 long, but this makes me feel incredibly inadequate! This is an amazing tank!

Where do people generally find these fish?

NANFA members often trade fish with one another. There's also aquabid.com's US Native Fish section, Sachs Aquaculture, Zimmerman's Fish, Jonah's Aquarium as you mentioned, Btdarters, and other native fish vendors. But really your best bet is other NANFA members. Or going on vacation to Tallahassee with a dipnet. If there weren't alligators there I'd already have done that.

Edited by EricaWieser, 19 January 2012 - 11:03 PM.

...on the left side under all the watter lettuce...

The roots do look like water hyacinth, but the leaves look kind of like Lemna major from this far away. That's a cute little plant. Do you have any closer pictures?

Edited by EricaWieser, 19 January 2012 - 11:14 PM.

The roots do look like water hyacinth, but the leaves look kind of like Lemna major from this far away. That's a cute little plant. Do you have any closer pictures?

Sure, just snapped these this morning. When I bought the water lettuce they were huge. Each was betwen 6" and 10" in diameter. I pulled the smallest babies off those and used them for the tank, but even they were still around 3" across. Once they started having plantlets, they came in more the size you're looking at below. You can see one of the original larger babies in the middle, surrounded by pretty much what the rest of them look like now. Also notice that the leaf shape changed pretty dramatically - originals had that almost trapezoid type shape, which big ridges in the leaves; new plants have smaller, rounder, smooth leaves.

I like them for a bunch of reasons. They're small, but not too small like duckweed. I have mostly slow growers otherwise, so these guys are like vacuum cleaners sucking up nitrates. Helps keep the tank in balance. I like the look of floating plants, but in my past experience floating hornwort and pennywort became algae magnets floating at the surface. These guys are true surface plants, so none of that. Also, fish love cover, I know they appreciate the hiding spaces and security.

Thanks for the list of sellers, will definitely have to check them out.





The black specs in the roots are the little baby snails I mentioned that never seem to get bigger.

p.s. Thanks Yeahson421

Edited by nowherman6, 20 January 2012 - 08:07 AM.

Great video, thanks for sharing.

Where do people generally find these fish? Collection is out for me, since I'm in new jersey and it's winter Only place I can find for NA natives in Jonah's Aquarium.

I can recommend Jonah's. That is were I got my orange throat & banded darters for my 1st native tank (55 gallon). I cant wait to order more. They came in healthy. I love your aquascaping. What ever you choose is going to look great in there.

You can see one of the original larger babies in the middle, surrounded by pretty much what the rest of them look like now. Also notice that the leaf shape changed pretty dramatically - originals had that almost trapezoid type shape, which big ridges in the leaves; new plants have smaller, rounder, smooth leaves.

Wow, that is dramatic. I've never seen water lettuce that looked like that. Neat

I agree with the others, your tank is very beautiful.

Edited by EricaWieser, 20 January 2012 - 10:02 AM.

After doing some more research I'm definitely going to make this a pygmy sunfish tank. I quite like the idea of having a tank with little fish that only really show themselves when they feel like it, and I think I can handle the frozen/ live food angle. I'm going to continue to plant it a little more densely but hopefully get my first fish in a couple weeks. Thanks all! Will post updates when I have some

After doing some more research I'm definitely going to make this a pygmy sunfish tank. I quite like the idea of having a tank with little fish that only really show themselves when they feel like it, and I think I can handle the frozen/ live food angle. I'm going to continue to plant it a little more densely but hopefully get my first fish in a couple weeks. Thanks all! Will post updates when I have some

Oh sweet. What species? I keep Elassoma gilberti, but haven't really seen a lot of the other species, like evergladei and zonatum. It would be nice if you post pictures

Oh sweet. What species? I keep Elassoma gilberti, but haven't really seen a lot of the other species, like evergladei and zonatum. It would be nice if you post pictures

According to their website, Sachs has both evergladei and okefenokee in stock right now, so as long as that stays true for a couple weeks I'll go with one of those. From what I understand they're nearly the same species, just native to different regions of the south. Both Jonah's and Sachs seem to have Zonatum in stock right now as well.

According to their website, Sachs has both evergladei and okefenokee in stock right now, so as long as that stays true for a couple weeks I'll go with one of those. From what I understand they're nearly the same species, just native to different regions of the south. Both Jonah's and Sachs seem to have Zonatum in stock right now as well.

Evergladei look different than okefenokee. There are some false pictures on the internet that are labelled 'evergladei' but that are actually okefenokee, so that might be why you think they're very similar. Or you might be thinking of gilberti and okefenokee, which are indeed nearly identical. Evergladei, however, have longer bodies and lack blue in their fins. Try going to fishbase.org and looking at photos of Elassoma evergladei. This is a direct link, although it might not work on your computer: http://www.fishbase....ary.php?ID=3364

Evergladei: http://www.fishbase....es/Eleve_u0.jpg (fully dark)
Okefenokee: http://www.fishbase....es/Eloke_u0.jpg (not completely dark but it was the only picture on fishbase)
Gilberti, http://gallery.nanfa...1 full crop.jpg (fully dark) More images: http://gallery.nanfa...rs/EricaWieser/
Here is the source that talks about how okefenokee and gilberti are nearly identical except in average number of rays on the anal fin, preopercular pore count, and female blue eye ring: http://biology.unm.e...et al. 2009.pdf

Zonatum seem cool. I've never really seen much of them, but they've got neat stripes.

Edited by EricaWieser, 23 January 2012 - 04:03 PM.

According to their website, Sachs has both evergladei and okefenokee in stock right now, so as long as that stays true for a couple weeks I'll go with one of those. From what I understand they're nearly the same species, just native to different regions of the south. Both Jonah's and Sachs seem to have Zonatum in stock right now as well.

Call them first. I emailed them a week before Christmas about shipping rates & never heard back. After Christmas I called them for the rate to find out they dont keep their availability list updated. I have to wait till late spring to get the rainbow shiners my wife wanted.

EricaWeiser - thanks for the clarification! Seems I was a little crossed up. I do love the look of the Okefenokee/ Gilberti, but honestly they're all appealing in their own way, so really what's available will drive a lot of my decision. In terms of size and behavior they all seem similar.

exasperatus2002 - thank you for the heads up, will be sure to contact them in advance. That's good to know for future considerations.

Well, it's been a couple months and things have grown in - I think it's jungle enough for my liking. Going to be adding E. Okefenokee soon, assuming I can find them available. Will be sure to post pics

It looks great! Beautiful tank!