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Hunting for Elassoma


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#1 Guest_jetajockey_*

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Posted 02 February 2012 - 06:30 AM

This is just a recording of my experiences hunting for E.Gilberti and the Elassoma genus in general.

I live in the florida panhandle, unfortunately just outside of the westernmost range of e.gilberti, so in order to get into range I have to travel eastward approximately an hour.

The only place I've been successful at finding e.gilberti at so far is in a (4-mile) creek off of sr-20. (choctawhatchee bay drainage). It's interesting, because I've yet to find them in creeks around this one, and the sampling area that I go to is relatively small. In the same area I have found e.zonatum in abundance, and in other creeks and swamps nearby netted the same results.

I usually go by myself, or I bring along the family, but they are preoccupied with picnicking or whatnot, so they aren't particularly involved with what I'm doing.

As far as what to look for, it's pretty easy, vegetation. Water temperature seems fairly irrelevant, have found elassoma in everything from mid 50s to upper 80s. I do not get in the water in these areas unless there is ample visibility.

I usually scout around a new area before I start netting. Some areas are clear and pretty gator-free, but a lot of areas are sketchy or known to have alligators in them. I'm more concerned about snakes, which are all over the place, than I am about gators. Water moccasins and other snakes are all along the creek banks, so it's very important to watch your step when you walk into an area with a lot of greenery. There are alligators in this part of florida, but they are an uncommon sight when I'm out. The ones that I do see usually take off before I even get a chance to get close. It still sticks in the back of my mind though that there's some huge gator just waiting for me to get a little bit too close, so I am very wary in areas that visibility isn't too good.

I use a perfect dipnet, it's a workhorse, and has outlasted my other nets and then some.

The only other thing I keep with me is a live bait bucket (find it in the fishing section of any department store) which is just a plastic bucket with a handle and a bunch of holes on the upper portion. I drop it in the water to fill it up (it's attached to a short piece of rope) and then carry it around with me. As I collect fish I add them to the bucket. Since many of these fish are smaller in diameter than the holes in the bucket, I don't put the bucket back into the water at all.

I keep a wheeled rubbermaid cooler in my car that is already half filled with tap water treated with Prime. Whenever I get ready to move to a new area, I just dump the contents of the bait bucket in there and move along. I have used a battery powered aerator, but it doesn't seem to make much of a difference when I'm only out for a few hours. The water movement in the cooler as I'm driving aerates it plenty, and it's insulated so it keeps a stable temperature. The summer time is a different story, though, since it's so hot out. I don't keep the fish in the bait bucket for more than a few minutes, and I try to park my vehicle in the shade to keep the temperature down inside.

I've not had any issues with fungus or major dieoffs with this species in particular, but I have had issues transitioning leptolucania omatta. With them I ended up doing a drip acclimation to transition them, rather than a plop-and-drop like I do with everything else. However, the time frame between collection and transition into a quarantine tank is only a few hours at most, so the fish don't have much time to get funky. A few drops of methylene blue in their holding water should be an effective counter to fungus issues, though.

We are planning to move up to Ohio in a few months, and once we do, I'll be taking vacation trips to Florida and will do some collecting. At that point I'll have to figure out a way to keep them for several days on end, but I don't think it'll be much of an issue since I am very familiar with packaging and shipping fish for longer periods than that.

I'm sure I missed some things, but hopefully this is a good start. Here's a short vid of some recently acquired e.zonatum and e.gilberti? (I think, anyway, we'll see)going crazy on some baby brine shrimp.



#2 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 02 February 2012 - 07:40 AM

Thank you for the guide!

I hadn't thought about the snakes... :(

Yes, the first fish in the video looks exactly like my own Elassoma gilberti; I'd be willing to bet that that's what it is. He's a male, too.

What kind of license do you need to collect Elassoma gilberti? Do you think you'll need a different one once you live in Ohio and are no longer a state resident?

Also, have you ever taken a test kit to the collecting site to see what the pH and DH is? I'm curious.

Edited by EricaWieser, 02 February 2012 - 07:48 AM.


#3 Guest_blakemarkwell_*

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Posted 02 February 2012 - 12:48 PM

Elassoma gilberti should be throughout the majority of the panhandle. Have you seen their distribution map in the paper describing them? If you have to travel east for anything, it should be E. okefenokee (unless of course you live at the most western edge of the panhandle -- either way, an hour drive is very close!). I wouldn't worry too much about the snakes -- once you get to know Agkistrodon, you almost feel like they're your body guards out in the swamp. I guess I can't speak for everyone though, because I'd be pumped to see gators and A. p. conanti (if I remember right, they're a bit smaller than leucostoma). People always describe having difficulty with Elassoma, but E. zonatum is incredibly easy here in Illinois. In fact, I watch thousands die every year in late summer in areas that frequently dry up (and that's presumably after the cottonmouths have gorged on them). Thanks for the write-up -- it's always nice when folks take the time to share their experiences!

Edited by blakemarkwell, 02 February 2012 - 12:49 PM.


#4 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 02 February 2012 - 01:21 PM

If you have to travel east for anything, it should be E. okefenokee

The Choctawhatchee region is gilberti. See page 127 ( 9 of 28 ) of this pdf: http://biology.unm.e...et al. 2009.pdf

#5 Guest_blakemarkwell_*

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Posted 02 February 2012 - 02:14 PM

Yep. I was just saying east of the panhandle is mainly E. okefenokee (it didn't seem right to read that he was in the panhandle, yet away from E. gilberti when the majority of their range is in the panhandle!). I'm jealous of anyone that is an hour or two drive from three species of Elassoma (although you guys have a bunch in NC too!).

Edited by blakemarkwell, 02 February 2012 - 02:35 PM.


#6 Guest_nativeplanter_*

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Posted 02 February 2012 - 03:31 PM

I'm more concerned about snakes, which are all over the place, than I am about gators.


That's funny - I'm more concerned about gators than snakes. To me, the snakes seem much more predictable - both where they're likely to be, as well as their behavior. Plus, they don't eye me as a potential dinner.

#7 Guest_jetajockey_*

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Posted 02 February 2012 - 04:12 PM

Yeah, most people don't think of this part of the panhandle when they think of Florida. I'd really like to be closer to e.gilberti so that collection wasn't as much of a trip, but it's still fun. The other hard part is that I'm not familiar with the areas there like I am here, so I spend a lot of time on google earth looking around.

Erica, in Florida the collection laws are pretty lax. As long as it's not a listed game fish or otherwise listed fish then all you need is a freshwater fishing license. There's no size or bag limit that I'm aware of, but good ethics will have you leaving behind plenty for repopulation.


The snakes are freaky, for sure, I've nearly stepped on several, both in and out of the water. They don't move until literally the last second, so it can be nerve wracking.

Once I move I will have to get a non-resident fishing license which costs a little more, but will serve the same purpose.

I've never tested the water in the areas that I collect from, apart from guesstimations of water temperature. I do know that most areas, if not all of them are tannin stained to some degree, so likely very acidic.

I'll try to remember to bring along a pH kit and an actual thermometer next trip so I can start recording exact numbers for future reference.

#8 Guest_jetajockey_*

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Posted 02 February 2012 - 04:15 PM

That's funny - I'm more concerned about gators than snakes. To me, the snakes seem much more predictable - both where they're likely to be, as well as their behavior. Plus, they don't eye me as a potential dinner.

Haha, yeah, there's that also. Plus a snake bite is a lot better than a gator bite!

But still, most of the areas I'm in are not prime gator territory, so the snakes are the main concern. I try to reassure myself by reading the gator attacks in recent years, they are really rare and most are either provoked or someone who was just begging for it (i.e. swimming at night, etc).

#9 Guest_danawhicker_*

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 08:42 AM

I've been scouting some possible Elassoma collecting areas but haven't tried catching any yet. The tank I am planning to put them in is not fully cycled yet. I have seen alligators every time I've been out and they have always just shied away from me. The couple of times I've seen snakes they have sat motionless until I'm right on top of them just like you have described, jetajockey.

I'm way more freaked out by the snakes partly because I am not very good at identifying them and there are several poisonous species in my area.

#10 Guest_Newt_*

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 10:30 AM

Take the time to learn your venomous snakes. It will save you a lot of needless anxiety.

The only venomous snake you are likely to see near the water is the cottonmouth. They are pretty easy to ID. They are massive and dark; young ones have an obvious banded pattern, while large adults tend to be drab. They have a small neck and a head that looks like it's carved from a block of wood. There is usually a fairly obvious light-bordered dark stripe angling back from the eye.

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Nonvenomous watersnakes (Nerodia sp.) can also be massive, and some are dark, but they have a smaller head with rounded outlines, like most nonvenomous snakes. They almost always have vertical dark stripes on the lips.

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Behavioral cues help too. When cottonmouths are swimming, they float high in the water, almost like a duck, with the head cocked up at a 45 degree angle. When approached, they are likely to stand their ground or swim slowly away. They may vibrate the tail (many other snakes do this too) or show off the famous white lining of the mouth.

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Nerodia are less buoyant, and swim with just the head out of the water. They usually flee rapidly when approached; if cornered, they will flatten themselves out and "spread" the jaws, giving them a fierce appearance. They will also bite savagely.

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I've spent a lot of time in the swamps, and have caught dozens of cottonmouths. Their reputation for aggression is ridiculously exaggerated; they are no more likely to attack unprovoked than any other snake. However, their bite is very serious and you should not disregard them.

#11 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 10:49 AM

Your post made me decide it was finally time for me to learn to ID cottonmouths, Newt. Your photos and the ones on this webpage http://forums.garden...1356396925.html were very helpful. Thank you.

#12 Guest_jetajockey_*

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 03:58 PM

I will take more time to learn to distinguish between snake species. I usually just see a snake and I get away from it, I don't really spend much time figuring out what it is. Thanks for the pictures it really helps clarify things.

#13 Guest_gerald_*

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 04:24 PM

Newt - that is the best discussion and set of pictures I have seen for distinguishing Nerodia water snakes from cottonmouth. It could save a lot of snakes' lives (and some twisted human ankles). Could you (or Drew) copy or move it to its own thread, entitled "Watersnakes and Cottonmouth" in the "Sampling" section, -- or even better -- create a new "Aquatic Reptiles & Amphibians" section right below our existing "Freshwater Invertebrates" section ?

#14 Guest_blakemarkwell_*

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 05:11 PM

Newt - that is the best discussion and set of pictures I have seen for distinguishing Nerodia water snakes from cottonmouth. It could save a lot of snakes' lives (and some twisted human ankles). Could you (or Drew) copy or move it to its own thread, entitled "Watersnakes and Cottonmouth" in the "Sampling" section, -- or even better -- create a new "Aquatic Reptiles & Amphibians" section right below our existing "Freshwater Invertebrates" section ?


I couldn't agree more with everything you said. I'd love an "Aquatic Reptiles and Amphibians" section. This is a great post that is much needed (not the first time this has surfaced), and you handled it properly -- much better than my "don't worry about them" post. :D If I would've had good diagnostic shots of the two groups, I would've exploited the opportunity as well.

#15 Guest_fundulus_*

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 06:49 PM

That's a good point about cottonmouths being strangely buoyant when swimming, I'd forgotten that in favor of just looking at their heads(!).




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