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Dario dario (scarlet badis) as an Elassoma tankmate?

Started by Guest_EricaWieser_* , Feb 12 2012 06:18 PM

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14 replies to this topic

#1 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 06:18 PM

Is it a good idea to put two fish who occupy the same ecological niche in the same tank?

I have a 55 gallon heavily planted aquarium that I feed thawed frozen bloodworms and live microworms to once or twice a day. I am trying to breed up my population of Elassoma gilberti, and if I get the Dario dario I'd want to increase their population and ship them to people, too. A fishkeeper an hour's drive away from me is emptying their tanks and offering Dario dario, the scarlet badis, for a ridiculously low price. I've considered this fish before (I love tiny fish) but they've always been too far out of my price range to seriously think about. But now that I've bid on them, I'm having second thoughts. Now I realize that in the wild when two species that occupy the same ecological niche cohabitate, one of them prospers and the other one dies out. I don't want that to happen. I want both fish to breed and make lots of babies, and for those babies to not get eaten, find lots of food, and grow up into healthy adults. Does anyone have any thoughts on how best to make this happen?

Will the Dario dario and Elassoma gilberti suffer from being near one another?
Will the population increase that I'm hoping to get in both Dario and Elassoma be less dramatic because they're sharing the same space?

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#2 Michael Wolfe

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North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 12 February 2012 - 06:32 PM

It would seem to me that it is about resource availability and which species best fits the new niche (the EW aquarium condition niche).

I mean, people keep mixed species groups of shiners or sunfish that fill pretty nearly the same niche and the fish thrive (although not always breed). I would think (but you wold know better) that swordtails and platies and guppies are all pretty close to the same niche and if there are sufficient resources (food and cover mostly) then all three breed in the same tank, right?

The problem is going to be what if there is something about your captive conditions that one or the other species is much better suited to than the other (and it could be crazy things like we have been talking about hardness and pH, or even a nutritional supplement or something about the kitty litter, anything) then that species would be able to out-compete the other one right? And it would seem that it wouldn't have to be much of a difference before one started to do better than the other... I mean just simply, do the dario fry do a good job of hiding or will the Elassoma just find then as a tasty snack? Remember all of the behavior things that you have noted about the way the fry behave so that the adults do not perceive them as a prey item? If the Dario fry don't act like that they will get eaten... or worse... if the Dario adults eat the Elassoma fry even when they sit still you could see decreases in your natives.

Sounds like you are about to have a big experiment on your hands that you will want to watch very closely.

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

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#3 Guest_frigginchi_*

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 07:08 PM

It depends on your pygmy to badis ratio. If you have 80 pygmies and 10 badis the pygmies will probably eat all the badis babies. It's a numbers game. 90% of the imported scarlet badis are males. So that even skews your chances for breeding them even more.

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#4 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 07:15 PM

It depends on your pygmy to badis ratio. If you have 80 pygmies and 10 badis the pygmies will probably eat all the badis babies. It's a numbers game. 90% of the imported scarlet badis are males. So that even skews your chances for breeding them even more.

But pygmy sunfish don't really eat fry.

Wikipedia cites Barney, R. L., and Anson, B. J. 1920. Life History and Ecology of the Pygmy Sunfish, Elassoma Zonatum. Ecology 1:241-256. as the source for saying "Stomach contents of 46 individual banded pygmy sunfish (26 of which were spawning adults) collected at Mound, Louisiana were examined for food identification by Barney and Anson. The main food identified at Mound included insect larvae (mostly from the family Chironomidae), small crustaceans and snail eggs. The crustaceans and snail eggs combined constituted the majority of the content. Next in quantity was the insect larva."
Baby fish are not included on the list of items found inside Elassoma stomachs.

Half of the fish sampled were not spawning adults, which means they were juvenlies. If a fish is going to eat fry, I figure it's going to do it in the juvenile stage of its life cycle, while it's bigger than the other fry but before it's fully grown. My conclusion from reading this is that Elassoma zonatum does not eat fry, at least when insect larvae, small crustaceans, and snail eggs are available. This probably extends to Elassoma gilberti. It hopefully means that my Elassoma gilberti will not eat their own and the Dario dario fry. But that's impossible to predict because as Michael Wolfe pointed out, the fry of the two species might have behavioral differences. I once witnessed an Elassoma eat its own fry when the fry moved at the wrong moment. If the dario fry move too much, the Elassoma might just eat them. This is impossible to predict based upon the stomach contents of wild Elassoma because Dario dario aren't found in the same waters as Elassoma naturally. So it might end up as you said, a numbers game. I have no idea what's going to happen, but if there starts to be a problem, the Elassoma are my #1 fish and I will do what I have to to protect them.

Edited by EricaWieser, 12 February 2012 - 07:25 PM.

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#5 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 07:27 PM

I would think (but you wold know better) that swordtails and platies and guppies are all pretty close to the same niche and if there are sufficient resources (food and cover mostly) then all three breed in the same tank, right?

Yeah, they do. As long as the swordtails are well fed and the fry have enough hiding spaces, everybody's offspring survives. It's an encouraging thought, thank you.

Edited by EricaWieser, 12 February 2012 - 07:28 PM.

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#6 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 07:30 PM

...if the Dario adults eat the Elassoma fry even when they sit still you could see decreases in your natives.

I have thought about this. Dario dario are smaller than Elassoma, so it's possible that the Elassoma fry could have some size protection from being eaten by the Dario. I'm going to keep a close eye on things, though. The Elassoma fry production rate isn't that great at the moment because my fish population is pretty old. Hopefully when these new whippersnappers reach puberty there will be a huge increase in fry. If that doesn't happen then I'll know the Dario dario have to be removed. I hate risking it, but maybe it will work out? I hope so. It would be so cool to have both blue/black and red/gold one inch fish in the same tank

Edited by EricaWieser, 12 February 2012 - 07:32 PM.

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#7 Guest_natureman187_*

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 02:22 AM

Will a polar bear get along with an alligator?
I don't know Erica. Why don't you try it and get back with us.

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#8 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 09:27 AM

Will a polar bear get along with an alligator?
I don't know Erica. Why don't you try it and get back with us.

Are the polar bear and the alligator in a tiny pen or in a ten square mile enclosure? Are they well or underfed? This is a 55 gallon tank with an unlimited food supply. It's not like I'm throwing the two together just to watch them fight. I am actually hoping this will work. It would be great to have more possible tank mates for Elassoma. A lot of people don't keep them because they are notoriously species-only. If this works, it may be possible to increase the number of people willing to keep a species of native fish.

If anybody has any experience combining Dario dario and Elassoma, I'd love to hear it. Please share your stories.

Edited by EricaWieser, 13 February 2012 - 09:28 AM.

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#9 Guest_gerald_*

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 10:27 AM

Did the person youre getting the Dario from breed them? If not, does he/she actually have any females? The fact that Elassoma and Dario generally dont eat their fry doesnt neceassarily mean they wont eat other fry. There might be chemical cues that tell them who's kids to eat or not eat. I may try that experiment some day too, but I have only one female Dario now (hard to find) and I aint gonna risk it.

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#10 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 01:17 PM

Did the person youre getting the Dario from breed them? If not, does he/she actually have any females? The fact that Elassoma and Dario generally dont eat their fry doesnt neceassarily mean they wont eat other fry. There might be chemical cues that tell them who's kids to eat or not eat. I may try that experiment some day too, but I have only one female Dario now (hard to find) and I aint gonna risk it.

Excellent question. I had just assumed it was mixed gender. I sent them an e-mail and will post back here once they respond.

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#11 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 09:38 AM

Thank you for asking that, Gerald! You just saved me a headache

Quote from the seller:
"Based on the video and your description [of what a female Dario dario looks like], I think they are all males. I am going to amend the auction and do not worry about the bid that you have alredy placed. If I do find any females I will let you know."

So it looks like I'm not getting them at this time after all. I'm sort of disappointed but I'm also relieved because the Elassoma babies are not at risk of being eaten. I'm still definitely interested in Dario dario (I love tiny fish) but maybe I'll get a second huge tank to put them in first, instead of being obligated to house them with the precious Elassoma.

Edited by EricaWieser, 14 February 2012 - 09:41 AM.

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#12 Guest_NVCichlids_*

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 01:11 PM

I currently have 5 dario dario in a 5 gallon set up. I have 2m/3f. I went to my lfs when they had gotten in 20-30 and picked out the only females in the group. I feel lucky to have them, but i cannot get them to breed. If they ever do end up breeding, I will keep some for you erica.

BTW, I had read an article once on these that stated they believe the wild population may be male dominant as well. There is a guy in PC that lives over there and he states about 1/10 that he finds is female.

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#13 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 01:18 PM

If they ever do end up breeding, I will keep some for you erica.

Thank you!

BTW, I had read an article once on these that stated they believe the wild population may be male dominant as well. There is a guy in PC that lives over there and he states about 1/10 that he finds is female.

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#14 Guest_Usil_*

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 05:32 PM

No matter what is said that question can have different answers depending on a lot of factors not the least of which is the predisposition of the particular tank mate you choose towards others in the tank. The best thing about keeping natives is we can try things and see what happens. Interesting observations can result.

Edited by Usil, 14 February 2012 - 05:32 PM.

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#15 Guest_jetajockey_*

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 12:57 AM

I wouldn't really bother with dario anyhow unless you find a less common strain or species, they are readily available on most wholesale lists so there isn't much of a demand that I've seen personally.

I think it could work, though, given enough space and getting a mixed ratio, some sellers are willing to do this if you know them, but most aren't. One other option is to get them special ordered at a LFS and just get a large group and hope for the best.