Hi all!
I'm new t this forum and I like all the info is in here. have been a long time since i have any aquarium (20 years or more) but recently i moved to Florida and as a fisherman I started to notice the variety of species in the lakes/ponds here. And now I want to setup a starter native aquarium.
I have been to several pet stores and found a nice 55 gal kit http://www.petsmart....uariums & Bowls it comes with everything but i like to know if its OK for natives? or is better to buy the tank and everything else separated? It will cost more the second way.
Best Regards
Armando
Kit vs DIY for native aquarium
Started by
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, Mar 18 2012 12:12 AM
24 replies to this topic
#2
Guest_EricaWieser_*
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Posted 18 March 2012 - 12:41 AM
Kit Includes:
- 55 gallon glass aquarium with plastic frame
- Two (24") full hoods with flourescent lights
- Top Fin 60 Power Filter with 2 cartridges
- Adjustable 200w UL heater
- Strip thermometer
- 6" net
- Fish food sample
- Water care sample
- Bacteria starter sample
- Guide to aquarium set-up and care
This is just my personal opinion, but can I go through each one, one by one?
Kit Includes:
- 55 gallon glass aquarium with plastic frame: I bought mine on craigslist for $25
- Two (24") full hoods with flourescent lights: I use a $20 Home Depot Lithonia shop light with $8 of full spectrum T8 bulbs
- Top Fin 60 Power Filter with 2 cartridges: Filters are $40 online including shipping
- Adjustable 200w UL heater: I don't use a heater in my Elassoma gilberti (a fish native to Florida) tank
- Strip thermometer: Thermometers are a dollar online. Strip thermometers are horrible things that continue sticking to your tank even after they're broke. I use the floaty ones.
- 6" net: I honestly use little cups more than I use my net. I only bought it to strain brine shrimp.
- Fish food sample: Woo hoo, exciting. Except I feed my Elassoma gilberti grindal worms.
- Water care sample: What is that specifically? All you need is a nitrate test kit. What you do is, you add fish flakes every day to your tank as if you were feeding fish. Forty days later it's safe to add fish. Do water changes to keep nitrate below 30 ppm (depends on fish species, but 30 is a safe bet in general). Source where I took the 40 days time from: slide 8 of http://www.ag.auburn...on%20Design.pdf
- Bacteria starter sample: This is handy. *shrug* I have no problem waiting the 40 days for a tank to cycle. If you do, just put a sponge in an existing filter, wait a week (random number on my part), take it out, put it in your tank, and insta-cycle. I wonder if the bacteria starter sample actually works? Sponge-transfer as mentioned above is very successful.
- Guide to aquarium set-up and care: You have any questions, go ahead and ask us here on the NANFA forum. We won't charge you money for info.
So far I'm seeing $25 + $20 + $8 + $40 + $1 = $94 of value in this $180 kit. And you still need to spend more money on a stand. My conclusion: I wouldn't buy this. And I didn't; on Tuesday last week I bought two 75 gallon tanks and the stand to hold them both for $150 on craigslist. I mean, yeah, take someone with you when you go pick up the tank so you don't get craigslist axe-murdered or anything, but I hear that's rare, and you save a lot of money on fish tanks.
Edited by EricaWieser, 18 March 2012 - 12:47 AM.
#3
Guest_rickwrench_*
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Posted 18 March 2012 - 04:15 AM
The kit advertised would not be a terrible deal, for a decent quality new generic tank, if the lighting was any good.
But, Erica is right, you will also need a quality stand. A bare 55g with water weighs about 500lbs. Add rocks, sand and you'll be pushing 600lbs.
Also, the reviews I read called the filter "very loud", the heater was questionable, the (plastic?) top bracing fragile, and, -most- unfortunately, the lights inadequate for plants. The ad is quite hazy on the type and wattage of lighting. If I were looking for a brand new tank, for me this kit's lighting would be the yes/no factor.
You would likely be better off piecing a "kit" together yourself.
As mentioned, used tanks are cheap on C.L., other ads, etc. However, they are often scratched, and who knows how old the silicone is? If you are comfortable evaluating used tanks, or even resealing a freebie, this is one of the best ways to get a good sized tank (and stand) for pocket change. Many great deals to be had this way. That said, the tank is almost always the least expensive part of the aquarium equation.
A new bare tank = not that much $.
Good lighting + a good quality stand + a maybe a good canister filter (Ehiem, Fluval, Rena, etc.) = a nice chunk of $.
Adequate lighting and a sturdy stand can also be cheap, many use DIY set-ups. But good, aesthetically pleasing lighting and stands are rarely cheap, either to buy or DIY.
Things that are cheap:
Substrate. Dirt cheap (literally!). Erica likes cat litter, I like creek sand capped dirt, others like baseball infield conditioner.
Hardscape. Rocks are everywhere, as is suitable wood.
Plants. In Florida, available wherever there is water. Also, check ads and local planted tank groups. Everybody prunes!
Fish. Cost of a dipnet and gas.
Air pump. Not needed.
Depending on your set up, plant density and fish load, you might be able to skip the canister filter and use a few cheap powerheads for water movement instead.
I believe each of us has their own "recipe" for tank setups, most of us are darned sure ours is the best way (for our situation). That is, until we run into a new problem and come up with a new "best way". I think I'm on "best way" #38 or so now.
Where is this tank going to live? Bedroom, living room, garage? Things to seriously consider...
Nobody's wife wants a used 20$ scratched up eyesore tank sitting on a raw 4x4 stand, lit with bare shop lights in their formal living room, no matter how beautiful the plants/fish are (trust me). Put the same tank in a working fish room or the garage, though, no problem, cheap and done.
Rick
But, Erica is right, you will also need a quality stand. A bare 55g with water weighs about 500lbs. Add rocks, sand and you'll be pushing 600lbs.
Also, the reviews I read called the filter "very loud", the heater was questionable, the (plastic?) top bracing fragile, and, -most- unfortunately, the lights inadequate for plants. The ad is quite hazy on the type and wattage of lighting. If I were looking for a brand new tank, for me this kit's lighting would be the yes/no factor.
You would likely be better off piecing a "kit" together yourself.
As mentioned, used tanks are cheap on C.L., other ads, etc. However, they are often scratched, and who knows how old the silicone is? If you are comfortable evaluating used tanks, or even resealing a freebie, this is one of the best ways to get a good sized tank (and stand) for pocket change. Many great deals to be had this way. That said, the tank is almost always the least expensive part of the aquarium equation.
A new bare tank = not that much $.
Good lighting + a good quality stand + a maybe a good canister filter (Ehiem, Fluval, Rena, etc.) = a nice chunk of $.
Adequate lighting and a sturdy stand can also be cheap, many use DIY set-ups. But good, aesthetically pleasing lighting and stands are rarely cheap, either to buy or DIY.
Things that are cheap:
Substrate. Dirt cheap (literally!). Erica likes cat litter, I like creek sand capped dirt, others like baseball infield conditioner.
Hardscape. Rocks are everywhere, as is suitable wood.
Plants. In Florida, available wherever there is water. Also, check ads and local planted tank groups. Everybody prunes!
Fish. Cost of a dipnet and gas.
Air pump. Not needed.
Depending on your set up, plant density and fish load, you might be able to skip the canister filter and use a few cheap powerheads for water movement instead.
I believe each of us has their own "recipe" for tank setups, most of us are darned sure ours is the best way (for our situation). That is, until we run into a new problem and come up with a new "best way". I think I'm on "best way" #38 or so now.
Where is this tank going to live? Bedroom, living room, garage? Things to seriously consider...
Nobody's wife wants a used 20$ scratched up eyesore tank sitting on a raw 4x4 stand, lit with bare shop lights in their formal living room, no matter how beautiful the plants/fish are (trust me). Put the same tank in a working fish room or the garage, though, no problem, cheap and done.
Rick
#4
Michael Wolfe
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Posted 18 March 2012 - 07:41 AM
Agree with all the advice you are getting... and would emphasize that I understand that someone who is not had a ton of aquariums in the past might want a new tank (less hassle to clean it up, less worries about leaks, etc). But, similar to what Rick said... if this is going in your house, then think a lot about the stand and hood. I would look for a deal that cost more... but gets you a nice stand and hood to go with a bare tank. On another thread here recently we were discussing foam filters as an inexpensive way to filter you whole tank... and if you have a nice enclosed stand the Whisper line of air pumps are not at all loud.
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin
#5
Guest_Difrano_*
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Posted 19 March 2012 - 12:07 AM
Th
Have you noticed what's not included? The stand. So far I'm seeing $25 + $20 + $8 + $40 + $1 = $94 of value in this $180 kit. And you still need to spend more money on a stand. My conclusion: I wouldn't buy this. And I didn't; on Tuesday last week I bought two 75 gallon tanks and the stand to hold them both for $150 on craigslist. I mean, yeah, take someone with you when you go pick up the tank so you don't get craigslist axe-murdered or anything, but I hear that's rare, and you save a lot of money on fish tanks.
Erica this is why i asked before buying anything I know that some "kits" have stuff that you don't need or not good for your setup. LOL Love the craigslist axe-murdered!
I agree with you on the tank price but the main issue is that near Orlando the craigslist tanks are 75 $ or more.... For the stand there is no issue as my brother in law is a handyman he told me that is going to do a custom made wood cabinet, able to handle the weight and give it to me for free .Rick, I plan to place the aquarium in my garage because my wife is not at all into having it inside the house (she had bad experience with aquariums when she was a child), but my 4 year old boy that always fish with me is asking one and later persuade her to move it inside, and i prefer to teach him natives because are the fish he usually see. I have a question for you: Do I need a cooler? summer in Florida is very hot and the garage may get into the 80's 90's, i believe this may kill my aquarium from the information i have collected on internet.
Thank you all for your answers It will take some time for me to build this setup.
Best Regards
Armando
#6
Guest_Newt_*
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Posted 19 March 2012 - 07:48 AM
You shouldn't need a cooler for your native fish. Most of our natives can handle higher temps, at least for a while, than many of the delicate tropical aquarium fish can.
Just be sure you have plenty of water movement from the filter outflow or an air pump to keep sufficient oxygen in the water. Lack of O2 is usually what causes problems for both fish and filter during high temperatures, not the heat itself (warm water holds less O2, warm fish need more O2).
On the hottest days, you can use a few tricks to lower the water temperature: evaporative cooling (set a fan to blow across the water surface) and adding frozen water bottles each morning are old favorites. Either of these will lower the water temp by a few degrees- not a lot, but enough to take the edge off, and they're much cheaper than a chiller.
Just be sure you have plenty of water movement from the filter outflow or an air pump to keep sufficient oxygen in the water. Lack of O2 is usually what causes problems for both fish and filter during high temperatures, not the heat itself (warm water holds less O2, warm fish need more O2).
On the hottest days, you can use a few tricks to lower the water temperature: evaporative cooling (set a fan to blow across the water surface) and adding frozen water bottles each morning are old favorites. Either of these will lower the water temp by a few degrees- not a lot, but enough to take the edge off, and they're much cheaper than a chiller.
#7
Guest_EricaWieser_*
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Posted 19 March 2012 - 01:19 PM
I've heard it said that there are three things when buying something: Fast, Good Quality, and Inexpensive. You can only ever get two of those three things at one time. So if you go to the pet store tomorrow and buy a really nice aquarium setup that they deliver to your home, it's probably going to be expensive. If you want a good quality and inexpensive tank setup off of craigslist, you're probably going to have to watch the craigslist posts diligently for a few weeks. Et cetera....near Orlando the craigslist tanks are 75 $ or more....
It makes sense; the reason the $75 posts you see on craigslist are still up is because they're too expensive for people to have jumped at to get them gone. The person that I bought the $150 two 75 gallon tanks and stand from had three people over that day buying tanks from them. They literally listed all the stuff in their fish room one day and it was gone the next. So those good deals aren't just going to sit on craigslist hanging around. Usually they're posted for a day and that's it. Therefore the odds of one being up on craigslist when you check it are pretty low, and you might have to wait a while before you see one.
It helps to know which parts you need and which parts you don't. Rickwrench's post makes a good point: substrate, rocks, wood, plants, fish, these things are all pretty inexpensive and if you see a good deal that leaves them out, it's okay. Ditto a heater, thermometer, net, fish food, care book. For me, the two things I absolutely need are the tank and the stand. I can buy lights from Home Depot ( http://www.homedepot...t&storeId=10051 ) and a $40 filter for a 75 gallon tank on ebay. So an empty tank and stand on craigslist without any filters or lights on it but at a super cheap price was perfect for me. If you pick the things you absolutely need and the things you don't, you'll save some money.
Edited by EricaWieser, 19 March 2012 - 01:30 PM.
#8
Guest_Difrano_*
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Posted 19 March 2012 - 02:10 PM
Thanks Erica,
You are right! I just checked this morning on craigslist, and looked for Tampa area (I'm working there all this week) and found 3 55 gal tanks on sale, on my lunch break I went to one of them and purchased the tank at 20 $, the owner haven't use it for long time and cannot guarantee no leaks, i look OK no scratches or damage so any leaks i should be able to fix it. The stand is being done so i only have to buy the lights and filters.
Now my next questions:
Substrate: I have several lakes with sandy beaches near home, can I use it? Any special treatment (bake, soap, place in the sun)? It does develop toxic spots as gravel? (never used anything else than gravel before)
Wood: Can I take it from lakes? Or have to sink a dry one?
Plants: How avoid local harvested plant to bring any pest or disease into the tank?
Light: I would like to have plants on it, I have read that 2 40W broad spectrum fluorescent lamps should be ok.
I want a balanced ecosystem in my tank so I wil start with the plants and try to setup the nitrogen cycle (cycle the tank), and then start adding fishes on it.
Best Regards
You are right! I just checked this morning on craigslist, and looked for Tampa area (I'm working there all this week) and found 3 55 gal tanks on sale, on my lunch break I went to one of them and purchased the tank at 20 $, the owner haven't use it for long time and cannot guarantee no leaks, i look OK no scratches or damage so any leaks i should be able to fix it. The stand is being done so i only have to buy the lights and filters.
Now my next questions:
Substrate: I have several lakes with sandy beaches near home, can I use it? Any special treatment (bake, soap, place in the sun)? It does develop toxic spots as gravel? (never used anything else than gravel before)
Wood: Can I take it from lakes? Or have to sink a dry one?
Plants: How avoid local harvested plant to bring any pest or disease into the tank?
Light: I would like to have plants on it, I have read that 2 40W broad spectrum fluorescent lamps should be ok.
I want a balanced ecosystem in my tank so I wil start with the plants and try to setup the nitrogen cycle (cycle the tank), and then start adding fishes on it.
Best Regards
#9
Guest_steve_*
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Posted 19 March 2012 - 02:21 PM
Not sure if you intended this to become a used vs. new tank discussion, but since it's going that way, I'll throw my 2 cents worth in also. I also usually buy used tanks just to save money, and no doubt, you can save a lot of it that way, but I also try to make sure that I get one cheap enough that it will be worth my while resealing it if I have to. Most of the time, what I've bought has held water, but occasionally, I do have to reseal one. If you see a tank holding water, that's a pretty good indication that it will when you get it home, but taking one down, moving it and refilling it can initiate a leak. Most of the time, there's no trouble, but it is something to keep in mind. If you buy a new one, they usually come with a pretty good warranty and you can just take it home and fill it up and not worry about it. I just bought a new 55 gallon tank only for about $90 on sale at a LFS. I know I could have found a used one cheaper, but at this point and time, for various reasons, it just wasn't worth it to me. Personally, I think you can do well either way.
Depending on what type of fish you're keeping, you might want some more filtration that what is provided by the kit. Typically, double what is recommended, is for me a starting point, but again, this varies depending on what fish you're keeping, how many fish your keeping and other variables with your set up.
Depending on what type of fish you're keeping, you might want some more filtration that what is provided by the kit. Typically, double what is recommended, is for me a starting point, but again, this varies depending on what fish you're keeping, how many fish your keeping and other variables with your set up.
#10
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Posted 19 March 2012 - 02:29 PM
Sorry, you posted while I was thinking. $20 seems cheap enough, even if you do have to reseal it.on my lunch break I went to one of them and purchased the tank at 20 $, the owner haven't use it for long time and cannot guarantee no leaks, i look OK no scratches or damage so any leaks i should be able to fix it. The stand is being done so i only have to buy the lights and filters.
Now my next questions:
Substrate: I have several lakes with sandy beaches near home, can I use it? Any special treatment (bake, soap, place in the sun)? It does develop toxic spots as gravel? (never used anything else than gravel before)
Wood: Can I take it from lakes? Or have to sink a dry one?
Plants: How avoid local harvested plant to bring any pest or disease into the tank?
Light: I would like to have plants on it, I have read that 2 40W broad spectrum fluorescent lamps should be ok.
I want a balanced ecosystem in my tank so I wil start with the plants and try to setup the nitrogen cycle (cycle the tank), and then start adding fishes on it.
Best Regards
There have been a lot of discussions on growing plants in aquariums in the "native plants forum and "advanced captive care forum". I think you'll really enjoy some of the information you'll find there. We've discussed using everything from top soil from the yard to kitty litter to grow plants. You're gonna love it.
Oh yea, Welcome to the forum.
Steve
#11
Guest_EricaWieser_*
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Posted 19 March 2012 - 04:01 PM
Some examples:There have been a lot of discussions on growing plants in aquariums in the "native plants forum and "advanced captive care forum". I think you'll really enjoy some of the information you'll find there. We've discussed using everything from top soil from the yard to kitty litter to grow plants. You're gonna love it.
http://forum.nanfa.o...ook-at-results/
http://forum.nanfa.o...as-a-substrate/
I've used random wood that I've found laying on the ground before. I take all the bark off before I put it in the tank. If it's small enough, it can be boiled to leech a lot of its tannins out. This means boiling it, draining off the water, and repeating until the water stays clear. It's a long and annoying process, so sometimes I don't do it. If you skip boiling it, the wood slowly turns the tank water yellow. Yellow water isn't unhealthy for the fish, but it does look kind of nasty. Right now my tank is balanced enough to never build up nitrate up to 30 ppm, so I don't have to do a water change if I don't want to. I find myself changing the water whenever it starts to get too yellow looking.Wood: Can I take it from lakes? Or have to sink a dry one?
In general, the wood that I've used in the past has had about a six month to one year lifespan (depending on how gross I let it get). Not-boiled wood sprouts fungus faster.
Edited by EricaWieser, 19 March 2012 - 04:09 PM.
#12
Michael Wolfe
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Posted 19 March 2012 - 05:22 PM
Substrate: I have several lakes with sandy beaches near home, can I use it? Any special treatment (bake, soap, place in the sun)? It does develop toxic spots as gravel? (never used anything else than gravel before)
Wood: Can I take it from lakes? Or have to sink a dry one?
Plants: How avoid local harvested plant to bring any pest or disease into the tank?
I would in general avoid lakes... and look in streams... for all of the above... The substrate in streams gets moved around more and is less likely to have those toxic spots in it as compared to a pond... and then if it is form the stream, so not wash it or anything... the beneficial bacterial in there will help you, not hurt... put a layer of dirt form your backyard (someplace in the backyard where you have not treated with a lot of fertilizer or weedkiller)... then put a layer of sandy creek bottom on top of that... same for the wood... if you can find something that is already laying in the bottom of the stream and already sinks you will be much better off... it may have most of the bark already off or not... and it will not develop fungus nearly as bad since it has likely already gone through that phase... and lastly... most things that come in with your plants will not be a pest or a disease... you will likely get a few things... the fish will eat most of them... and it will all be good.
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin
#13
Guest_LittleBuffalo_*
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Posted 20 March 2012 - 09:35 AM
I live on a small river and when I'm hiking the river bottoms I keep an eye out for small stumps and interesting knarly wood, especially red cedar. I look for pieces that have most of the soft sap wood rotted or scoured off leaving the durable heart. If necessary I'll use a wire wheel on a hand grinder or a wire brush to remove remaining sap wood, dirt, gravel, etc. Sometimes, especially with stumps, I'll cut them on a table saw to create a flat side to fit against the back aquarium glass, hide heaters, uplift tubes etc, or otherwise trim to fit the tank.Sometimes I drill holes in the piece to make swim-throughs and add interest. I then soak the piece for as long as I can or until waterlogged. If I'm in a hurry I'll screw a plexiglass plate to the bottom which is covered by substrate and rocks to hold it down or just stack rocks on it until it's thoroughly waterlogged.
Some folks are concerned about the oils and acidity in red cedar but I've never had any problems and I've had some in tanks for over 20 years. Plecos love it.
Cypress knees make interesting biotopes too.
Some folks are concerned about the oils and acidity in red cedar but I've never had any problems and I've had some in tanks for over 20 years. Plecos love it.
Cypress knees make interesting biotopes too.
Edited by LittleBuffalo, 20 March 2012 - 09:36 AM.
#14
Guest_schambers_*
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Posted 20 March 2012 - 01:59 PM
For what it's worth, I don't worry about cleaning anything I put in my aquariums, whether it came out of a bag or a river. Substrate gets dumped in without any rinsing. I'll rinse off rocks and whatnot, but if you are careful filling the tank, it won't cloud up.
Here is a great how-to written by a fellow NANFAn. You won't go wrong following Farmertodd's advice.
http://farmertodd.co...e_fish_tank.pdf
Here is a great how-to written by a fellow NANFAn. You won't go wrong following Farmertodd's advice.
http://farmertodd.co...e_fish_tank.pdf
#16
Guest_gzeiger_*
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Posted 24 March 2012 - 01:13 PM
The tannin problem is really a matter of taste. I think the dark water looks beautiful, at least in low light tanks that are mostly rock and/or wood structure. It could be ugly if you want a lot of plants I guess, but I've always enjoyed wood and oak leaves as a substrate for tanks with swamp darters, crayfish, madtoms, Elassoma and similar swamp critters.
#17
Guest_Doug_Dame_*
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Posted 24 March 2012 - 06:28 PM
re fish tanks in garages:
For $10 to $15 you can get a min-max thermometer in the home improvement section. Hard to just guess how hot a garage is getting during the middle of the day in the summer, or how cold in the winter.
For $10 to $15 you can get a min-max thermometer in the home improvement section. Hard to just guess how hot a garage is getting during the middle of the day in the summer, or how cold in the winter.
#18
Guest_Difrano_*
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Posted 26 March 2012 - 02:22 PM
Thank you all for your replies,
I have cleaned and tested the tank, I'm waiting for the stand that should be done in 1 week. I will go for the led strip for lighting, and local dirt/sand as substrate.
Now my 2 ¢ question is the filter..... My head is about to blow after reading all the discussions here and in other forums about filters and the more i read more confused on what filter i should buy....I understood how all the filters type work and
but i just have to take a definitions on canister filters vs HOB
I also tink about to add a small pump to create small current inside the tank.
I'll keep you informed on progress
I have cleaned and tested the tank, I'm waiting for the stand that should be done in 1 week. I will go for the led strip for lighting, and local dirt/sand as substrate.
Now my 2 ¢ question is the filter..... My head is about to blow after reading all the discussions here and in other forums about filters and the more i read more confused on what filter i should buy....I understood how all the filters type work and
but i just have to take a definitions on canister filters vs HOB
I also tink about to add a small pump to create small current inside the tank.
I'll keep you informed on progress
#20
Guest_RichardSFL_*
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Posted 30 March 2012 - 01:04 PM
- Two (24") full hoods with flourescent lights: I use a $20 Home Depot Lithonia shop light with $8 of full spectrum T8 bulbs
Hi Erica - This is an excellent idea (love inexpensive solutions) but I am wondering if you have them hanging from the ceiling by chains or if you have somehow figured out a non-hanging method. Thanks,
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