Fish disease affecting shiners

I've had a few fish die and a couple others with odd symptoms.

1. I had a healthy Stoneroller and then suddenly it stopped eating, got really thin and died, no other problem.
2. I have 2 Saffron Shiners that are thinning as well
3. Photo'd here, I had a healthy Silver Shiner, it was still eating before death but obvious trouble swimming.
4. I have a Crescent Shiner with similar white area behind the dorsal fin, but not as bad as this one.









More photos http://gallery.nanfa...jblaylock/sick/

Does anybody have an idea on what might be going on? I'm thinking it looks like columaris flexibacter. Seems odd, My tank has been healthy for roughly a year without any changes in fish or anything else. The only thing I've done differencly over the past couple months is that I'm using H2O2 to help clean my background. Could that been weakening my filtration or hurting the fish?

Please any help, I don't want to lose my whole stock.

I know you don't testing water, and I agree with you as long as all the fish are healthy. But now that you're losing lives, would it be worth your time to check what's going on with ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate? If those are above 0 ppm, 0 ppm, and 30 ppm respectively, you can know that cleaning the water would help the fish recover. Only after they're totally on point would I start thinking about medications for the disease.

I normally say meh to pH, DH, and KH testing because when they're steady most fish will eventually adjust to them. But your other post mentioned having a large amount of mulm. If you test your pH and find it to be more than 1 unit of pH lower than your tap water, the mulm might have caused a sudden swing that then weakened the fish's immune system. If the KH and DH are low then the mulm has exhausted your water's buffering capacity and it might be a good idea to add a handful of crushed coral to the filter so the water flows over it.

Most fish diseases are opportunistic. They're in the tank for a while before the fish actually get any symptoms. The pathogen can be there but the fish won't get sick until your water conditions deteriorate a bit. Then all of a sudden all heck breaks loose because your fish's immune system is no longer able to cope with the multiple assaults. Someone once told me that since he'd gotten a rotten tooth cavity infection his athelete's foot fungus had gotten worse. I know it's just anecdotal (not exactly a clinical trial or anything) but it taught me that when there are multiple assaults to the immune system it's not able to deal with each one as well as it would be able to if everything else was ship shape. So... water testing is important. If the water's not clean, that could be part of the problem.

Edited by EricaWieser, 23 March 2012 - 06:59 PM.

Sheesh, I'll have to pick up a test tomorrow.

Also, I lost a Greenside darter tonight. However, I do not believe it was due to any sickness. I've had this Greenside for 4 years and it had to be 1-2 when I collected it, so it was about 5-6yo. It was actually the last remaining fish from my 1st collection outing.

I would drain 90% of the water,
make sure there is still aeration,
add a triple dose of Amquel,
and then refill the tank over the next 6 hours.

The key phrase in VicC's post is "then refill the tank over the next 6 hours". If the pH is 2 points away from your tap water a big sudden water change could shock the fish. Ditto if the KH and DH are drastically different. Sick fish are less able to compensate for parameter changes, too, so it's better to acclimate them super slowly.

Edited by EricaWieser, 24 March 2012 - 09:23 AM.

I would drain 90% of the water,
make sure there is still aeration,
add a triple dose of Amquel,
and then refill the tank over the next 6 hours.

VicC, what am I treating for, per your guidelines?

That advice could be used in place of a test kit, I would say. Whether your problem is chemical or bacterial, or a parasite, or some combination, a large water change should remove most of the problem, reducing its concentration to something the fish can manage. It may also be a good idea to test the water (or just save a cup - most pet stores will do a basic ammonia/nitrate test for free) to determine if there is a chemical problem. If not, you may want to continue changing water every 2-3 days for a while to keep the pathogen population down while the fish recover.

Maintaining aeration during a 90% water change would be quite a challenge, and in my opinion isn't necessary. I've never seen a fish go into shock from a water change except when a significant temperature difference existed, and even then I've only seen it in captive-bred tropicals. It's certainly possible, but rapid removal of the original irritant is probably more important overall. Remember that three 50% changes aren't quite as good as one 90%. Removing as much water as possible will maximize the effectiveness. I have had fish hurt themselves by panicking and swimming into rocks when I lowered water too much though.

I picked up test strip kit.

Nitrate was roughly 40-50ppm, Nitrite 0ppm

Going to do the PH and ammonia in a bit

The fin deterioration and whitening on the caudal peduncle looks like classic Flexibacter (columnaris) symptoms. It's super common on newly caught fish, but I almost never see it attack fish that are settled after the first 2 weeks, unless something else is severely wrong. Getting thin sounds like a symptom of that "something else" (bacteria, gut parasite, water qual, diet deficiency, etc) so Flexibacter is probably not your underlying problem.

Ok, so I'm going to do a big water change today, I usually do about a 30% change bi-weekly, but I'll probably do 50% or more. I can't do a 90% change. That would only leave 12.5gal of water in a large 125gal tank, that's a quick way to kill all the fish. Is there any advantage to using Amquel to Prime? Based on what I've seen, Prime is better....maybe not better than Amquel+, but I reall like Prime.

I've read tons of stuff on the net, and several of the threads here on H2O2. But I'm just curious if that has anything to do with my recent problems. I started using H2O2 to clean my background a few months ago, and now I'm having problems. Does H2O2 effect the fish or filtration?

H2O2 is very photosensitive (it decomposes into water and oxygen when exposed to light). Unless you were adding cupfulls of the stuff I doubt it stayed around in any significant concentration. How much were you adding and how frequently?

Also, you don't have to do a 90% water change. If your nitrate is 40 to 50 ppm then a 50% water change would dilute it down to 20 to 25 ppm, which is under 30 ppm and in the safe zone. Half water changes are safer than 90% water changes because it gives the fish more time to adjust to the tap water parameters. If the DH, KH, pH, temperature, salinity, etc of your tap water are very different than your tank water then giving them time to adjust (especially while they're sick) would be a very good thing. What I usually do when a pathogen is present (now, disclaimer, my fish haven't been sick for a very long time) is to do a 25-50% water change every day until they get better. I dechlorinate the incoming water and make sure it's the same temperature as the tank water as it comes in, but don't add any other chemicals.

Now that you've tested your nitrate and seen that it's above 30 ppm, you know that the frequency of your water changes was not enough, and was actually somewhere around half of what you need to keep nitrate below 30 ppm. You might want to increase the frequency of your water changes in the future, or just buy a test kit and test the tank every week. If nitrate is above 30 ppm, do a water change. If nitrate is below 30 ppm, wait a week and test the water again.

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A second disclaimer: Nitrate sensitivity is very variable depending on the species and their exposure to nitrate in the wild. Rift lake cichlids and marine fish live in very large volumes of water that never gets nitrate in any significant concentrations. Those fish are inherently more sensitive to nitrate than a fish that lives in the wild in a stinky backwater pond. I'm not sure what fish you have, but you can try to look up the acute and chronic nitrate sensitivities of the species with a google literature search. Fish scholars have published a lot of papers on acute toxicities, only a few on the chronic ones. In general 30 ppm is an average cutoff that I have personally found in the past to work for swordtails, platies, bettas, danios, hatchetfish, pygmy sunfish, and darters. I haven't kept shiners.

Edited by EricaWieser, 25 March 2012 - 12:20 PM.

I've read tons of stuff on the net, and several of the threads here on H2O2. But I'm just curious if that has anything to do with my recent problems. I started using H2O2 to clean my background a few months ago, and now I'm having problems. Does H2O2 effect the fish or filtration?

Given that you had a well-established tank that's suddenly declined, certainly "what's changed?" is a major part of your investigation of cause/cure/prevention. And if there aren't any other major suspects .....

Based on 3 minutes of Google research, I would consider the following to be an authoritative source of relevant information: Use of Hydrogen Peroxide in Finfish Aquaculture. That's because the author, Dr. Yanong*, is a veterinarian and professor who specializes exclusively in fish diseases for the aquaculture industry. (The Tampa/StPete SKS/NANFA club has a meeting every year or two at the research facility where he works.) It appears that formal testing has been done on (no surprise) commercial aquaculture and "ornamental finfish" species, but not too much on random other (native) fish. However, it's worth noting that several tested species, blue gouramis and suckermouth catfish (plecos), basically could not tolerate H2O2 at all, so that will probably be true for some other species as well.

Do you have a sense of what kinds of doses you've been applying? The article discusses use of an FDA-approved aquaculture product, at 35% strength, available only in 55 gal drums, so presumably that's not what you're using. But the formula in the article should let you convert over-the-counter H2O2 to mg/L or mg/gal concentrations. 5ml is almost exactly one US teaspoon.

Note also that the decay curve on the concentration is somewhat variable. Dr Yanong cites studies where it declined to low levels in 1 to 3 days, but somewhere else (on the internet, take that for what that's worth), I saw a suggestion it could persist as long as 20 days. Presumably that's largely a function of the amount of oxidizable material in the tank, water movement and aeration. In other words, hard to estimate with confidence.

Hope this helps a bit. Never fun to go through what you're experiencing with this tank.

d.d.

(* Roy P.E. Yanong, associate professor and extension veterinarian, Tropical Aquaculture Laboratory, Ruskin FL 33570, Program in Fisheries and Aquatic Sciences, School of Forest Resources and Conservation, Florida Cooperative Extension Service, Institute of Food and Agricultural Sciences, University of Florida, Gainesville, FL 32611.)

Edited by Doug_Dame, 25 March 2012 - 12:21 PM.

To follow up. Ammonia is 0. The ph of the tank water and my tap water is very very close, not more than .5 off, roughly a ph of 7, which is near most streams in this area. When I do water testing it's usually 7-7.5.

I'm not sure how much H2O2 I use. I just squirt it onto the background and then use a brush to clean it further. I would say I less than a cup, maybe 1/2cup. I use it when ever I clean my tank out, roughly every 2 weeks. I'm not sure exactly how to interpret Dr. Yanong's finding as testing on 35% isn't easy to translate to regular 3% usage on native fish. It doesn't seem to stress the fish, but I want to make sure it's not harming my filtration and the fish.

I'm not sure how much H2O2 I use. I just squirt it onto the background and then use a brush to clean it further. I would say I less than a cup, maybe 1/2cup. I use it when ever I clean my tank out, roughly every 2 weeks. I'm not sure exactly how to interpret Dr. Yanong's finding as testing on 35% isn't easy to translate to regular 3% usage on native fish. It doesn't seem to stress the fish, but I want to make sure it's not harming my filtration and the fish.

I don't know if a half cup is more or less than other people use. Where's nativeplanter when we need her? She regularly advocates using H2O2 in her aquariums and would probably know how much is too much. Jblaylock, maybe you could pm her?

To follow up. Ammonia is 0. The ph of the tank water and my tap water is very very close, not more than .5 off, roughly a ph of 7, which is near most streams in this area. When I do water testing it's usually 7-7.5.

Then you should be able to do large water changes without stressing the fish. Just make sure keep the temperature is the same in tap and tank waters, and dechlorinate the incoming water so it doesn't murder your beneficial bacteria.

Edited by EricaWieser, 25 March 2012 - 02:55 PM.

You need to go with Casper Cox to Estillfork, AL and fish the Paint Rock River.

The water may be 1 foot deep when you arrive,
and 1 day later
the river could be 8 feet deep.

Stream fish can t take
drastic
sudden
changes in pH
temperature
and hardness.

Gerald,
Thanks for the Flexibacter (columnaris) info.

I'm not sure exactly how to interpret Dr. Yanong's finding as testing on 35% isn't easy to translate to regular 3% usage on native fish. It doesn't seem to stress the fish, but I want to make sure it's not harming my filtration and the fish.

Not to belabor the point, but if you have dying fish, something is stressing them.

I found some more web info, Jerry's Planted Aquarium Pages, which cites the H2O2 MSDS, as follows:

This Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) on hydrogen peroxide contains the lowest concentration, that I was able to locate, and minimum exposure time required to produce 50% mortality in any aquatic organism. The organism is Daphnia pulex, and the concentration and duration were 2.4 mg/L and 48 hours respectively. Daphnia are known to be particularly sensitive to chemicals in the water; so much so that they are frequently used to directly measure pollution in waterways. The same MSDS also lists peroxide's effect on fathead minnows (Pimephales promelas) and found a 50% mortality after exposure to 16.4 mg/L for four straight days.

Hey, look, fathead minnows ! (Fun fact: Paul Sachs got into the fish biz largely due to his skill in raising fatheads of exactly the right ages for exactly these kinds of lethality tests.)

For example, if you need to use a treatment concentration of 500 mg/L and will treat 150 liters of water in a closed system, then:

500 mg/L
---------------- x 150 Liters x 1000 mg/L = 189.3 mL of 35% PEROX-AID.
396,100 mg/L

So let's:
* put in the 50% lethality number for fatheads (16.4 mg/L) in as the "treatment concentration" instead of his 500 mg/L,
* dilute the hydrogen peroxide concentration by 3% / 35%, or .03/.35*396100 mg/l => 33,951 mg/L (assuming you use a 3% solution),
* since you said a 90% water change would leave only 12.5 gal, you have a 125 gal tank, or 473 L

Plugging those numbers in gives ... 228 ml. I'm sure somebody will double-check that calculation for me.

In other words, 1/4 of a liter ... approx one cup ... of 3% hydrogen peroxide in a 125 gal (sterile) tank would kill 50% of any fathead minnows present in 4 days. Other species might be more or less sensitive.

Too much H2O2, I think.

HTH

Edited by Doug_Dame, 25 March 2012 - 04:16 PM.

Doug, I really really appreicate your input, and you are right...I have some problem somewhere. I'm still not convinced it IS/ISNT the H2O2. Dr. Yanong said "NOTE: This formula will not work for hydrogen peroxide products that are not 35% active ingredient". Also, that study showed the H2O2 pretty much disappeared within an hour in the presents of airation and organic material...both found in high volumns in my system.

I just need to find the problem so I can eliminate it and treat the current outbreak.

Nativeplanter advocates using 3 ml of 3% peroxide per gallon (= 30 ml = 2 Tbsp per 10 gal) for killing algae, if I recall correctly. It is also used as a treatment against Flexibacter (not sure what dosage) so it's odd that you're getting Flexi infection in a peroxide-treated tank. Peroxide is short-lived, but thats because it reacts very fast. If a fish, plant, or your filter gets a direct squirt, it can oxidize tissue (and kill filter bacteria) within seconds. I dont use it often, but when I do I mix it into a quart of water, shut off the filter and lights for 10 min, and then pour the diluted peroxide all around the tank so nobody gets a facefull of it.

Doug, I really really appreicate your input, and you are right...I have some problem somewhere. I'm still not convinced it IS/ISNT the H2O2. Dr. Yanong said "NOTE: This formula will not work for hydrogen peroxide products that are not 35% active ingredient". Also, that study showed the H2O2 pretty much disappeared within an hour in the presents of airation and organic material...both found in high volumns in my system.

I just need to find the problem so I can eliminate it and treat the current outbreak.

I adjusted the formula to account for a 3% over-the-counter solution instead of a 35% medicinal/commercial solution.

The "disappeared within hours" comment is dependent on (1) the initial dosing (which I don't know know, maybe you do), (2) the amount of aeration (which we don't know), and (3) the relative amount of organic materials to be oxidized, and convert the H2O2 to safe H2O in the process (which we don't know). So extrapolating that result to your situation is dangerous.

We know that, at some concentration, probably species-specific, H2O2 is toxic. (So is salt.) At some lower levels, it's likely a stressor that exposes critters to other opportunistic infections and ailments. We just don't know exactly where the safe limits are, in your tank, for your fish and bio-colonies. We do know the problems manifested sometime after you got Clean Disease and started using hydrogen peroxide to clean your background. That might be a coincidence, or it might not.

Do you have a ground probe on this tank, just in case there's any stray voltage entering ? (I've never had the problem with a f/w tank, but have with a s/w tank. It's an obscure problem that can cause fishy distress.)

I just need to find the problem so I can eliminate it and treat the current outbreak.

Okay, so let's use process of elimination.

Ammonia is 0.

It's not the ammonia.

Nitrite 0ppm

It's not the nitrite

Nitrate was roughly 40-50ppm

The nitrate is a bit high but not so high as to be the sole culprit. In the long term might want to do more frequent water changes.

The ph of the tank water and my tap water is very very close, not more than .5 off, roughly a ph of 7, which is near most streams in this area. When I do water testing it's usually 7-7.5.

It's not the mulm causing a sudden dramatic pH swing

In other words, 1/4 of a liter ... approx one cup ... of 3% hydrogen peroxide in a 125 gal (sterile) tank would kill 50% of any fathead minnows present in 4 days.

It's the H2O2.

Edited by EricaWieser, 25 March 2012 - 05:52 PM.