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FL juvenile sunfish?

Started by Guest_blcorona_* , Mar 26 2012 06:41 PM

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15 replies to this topic

#1 Guest_blcorona_*

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 06:41 PM

Hi and thank you in advance. I'm relatively new to native fish, but an experienced keeper of many kinds of other fish koi to marine and all the little guys in between. I have a small (~1000 gal) heavily planted pond that has been planted and empty for over a year except for a few melanistic Gambusia, a small breeding population of Heterandria formosa and three feral male Variatus platys, all from a local drainage ditch. It's really heavily planted, azolla on everthing that isn't something else, soft acidic water with a bottom of some sand/leaf mulm and local clay. Plants look awesome since it's almost summer here this year! Anyway, the setup was needed to get you to the point of the ID- I was out dip netting in a side creek of the Santa Fe River near Worthington Springs, FL this weekend to see what kinds of other native fish might be available nearby to add to my pond now that it's nice and aged and healthy. I live about 20 miles from this location, very convenient. Here's what I found:

I netted four Etheosoma fusiforme, a Percina nigrofasciata, countless Heterandria formosa-

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And then these other ones... They might be juvenile Lepomis gulosus, is that right? The large one is probably 1.5" or so. I'm waiting on my copy of Collecting in Florida from Charles, he said they were shipping this week and I'm really stoked to get it. They're ranging in age so at first I thought maybe 2 species, but they have the same irridescent coloring and seem to get more tesselated like the larger individual as size increased. You can see the coloring of the smaller ones reflecting in the floor of the photo cup, although perpendicular to the sun they are really quite attractive- kind of a blush-purple sheen to the body and blue-green on the head with the dark markings all over. There is a small margin that is noticeable on the tail fin of the bigger individuals I saw, the anal fin starts fairly far back, eyes are really big as is mouth. Seems like a warmouth I think :

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Excuse my jacked-up field photo tank- computer paper and an old betta tank I got at my neighbors yard sale. I'm going to make an acrylic one, I'm totally hooked now and it's fun to play with acrylic. Are there any good spots to see Elassoma species near there?

Thanks!

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#2 Guest_Yeahson421_*

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 06:49 PM

It looks like the big one is a Warmouth, the long, striped ones are probably Yellow Perch, and the other sunfish are too small and too unclear to really ID.

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#3 Guest_Kanus_*

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 07:08 PM

I would agree that the large sunfish is a warmouth, but the others are juvie bluegill.

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#4 Guest_fundulus_*

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 07:16 PM

I'd say Derek is right.

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#5 Guest_gerald_*

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 07:28 PM

I agree with Derek too. The 2 darters that are not blackbanded could be either sawcheek or swamp.

I would agree that the large sunfish is a warmouth, but the others are juvie bluegill.

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#6 Guest_mneilson_*

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 08:26 AM

Are there any good spots to see Elassoma species near there?

I've caught them a little further downstream in the Santa Fe near High Springs. Take a seine/dipnet around some cypress knees, and you should find some.

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#7 Guest_blcorona_*

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 08:42 AM

I agree with Derek too. The 2 darters that are not blackbanded could be either sawcheek or swamp.

I thought one was the Etheostoma fusiforme, this one:

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Is that not the fish in question?

Thanks for your help everyone!

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#8 Guest_blcorona_*

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 08:46 AM

Thanks Matt, I will check this weekend.

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#9 Guest_blcorona_*

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 08:46 AM

Sorry having some technical issues quoting the posts properly.

I didn't know that Etheostoma serrifer occurred in this part of Florida. The darter-like fish with the black band has a much more torpedo shaped head than Etheostoma species too, shaped a lot more like the Percina I guessed at. Anything else in this part of North Central Florida similar to that? This is the best picture I have illustrating the overall form of the fish, sorry:

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Not a Percina sp. of some kind?

Edited by blcorona, 27 March 2012 - 08:57 AM.

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#10 Michael Wolfe

Board of Directors

North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 27 March 2012 - 09:21 AM

Yes, I think everyone is saying that the one sticking out at about a 45 degree angle there is an obvious blackbanded darter (Percina nigrofasciata)...

not sure what is supposed to be in your area, but I see these all the time and that certainly is what it look like to me...

EDIT: Looking closer at the new Peterson's you are definitely in blackbanded darter range

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

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#11 Guest_blcorona_*

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 09:50 AM

Yeah, that's the one- 45 degree guy. I see I was interpreting the response incorrectly- so the other one really is the swamp darter then, right? I am pretty sure I had the first three IDed correctly (swamp and blackbanded and Hets) because I found the locality on the boards here and another one was found in that area; on CR 237 where it crosses the Santa Fe SW of Worthington Springs FL. Good to know I can ID at least a few of the diminutive species. Ashamed to admit I only recently learned there was anything small in our fresh waters besides Gambusia and young bigger fish... and invasives lol. What a surprise! So many beautiful little fish.

The sunfish... well those are another matter altogether. Juvies look so similar to me, my eyes are not discerning enough yet to tell them apart.

Thank you everyone for your replies, now I know what I am looking at for when I go back to collect some for my pond.

Is there any reason why either of the darters would be unsuitable residents? There is nothing in the lower strata of the pond in terms of fish, lots of plants down there though. It seems like they would appreciate it.

Edited by blcorona, 27 March 2012 - 09:56 AM.

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#12 Guest_gerald_*

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 10:43 AM

On the Etheostoma, the double spot where the caudal peduncle joins the tail made me think it's serrifer, but I see now in my Peterson guide that FL is beyond serrifer's normal range. So either its a swamp, or you've found an introduced (or ancient relict?) serrifer pop. Another difference I see in the Carolinas, fusiforme has a tan-greenish eye and serrifer has a more orange eye. Yours looks sort of orange in the photo, but maybe in FL fusiforme have orange eyes.

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#13 Guest_Dustin_*

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 11:26 AM

They all look like obvious fusiforme to me. Fusiforme will nearly always have two spots on the peduncle, just one is much darker and more obvious than the other. In serrifer the two spots are nearly the same size and there is typically some red or orange coloration between them. When in color the sawcheek do get that really orangish eye with some color in the finnage as well. They also seem to glow green. Swamps are smaller, more slender and do not take on the same color change.

Very little doubt on the sunnies either. I concur that the biggie is a warmouth and the others are bluegill.

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#14 Guest_gerald_*

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 02:43 PM

Dustin is correct about swamp darter ... sorry for my false lead.
Now, see if you can find some brown darters - they're quite nice, despite the dull name.

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#15 Guest_blcorona_*

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 06:33 PM

It looks like brown darters are found nearby as well:

http://www.flmnh.ufl...rowndarter.html

It is really nice, I will be on the look out.

How can you identify those smaller sunfish as young blue gills? What gives it away?

Thanks again for the responses everyone

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#16 Guest_Dustin_*

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 07:38 AM

I think the thing that helps ID the juvie sunfish best is experience and a keen eye for the details. Juvenile bluegill are easier because they typically show very strong markings even when a juvenile. The bluegill will show the strong double vertical banding on a mostly silvery background. There are other species that show similar markings like the redear and the green but the redear will typically have some mottling on the flank and most of the time some reddish spot on the operculum and the green has a very different body shape even at that size. We don't have many greens here so I am not in good practice with those. You don't have many there either.

If you don't have it, I would suggest getting the Fishes of TN by Etnier and Starnes. It has an excellent guide to juvenile sunfish that could serve as a aid for you getting started looking at these little guys.