Starting a 45g, I want to add darters and need a current.
Started by
Guest_lizzysilvertongue_*
, Apr 01 2012 03:12 AM
27 replies to this topic
#1
Guest_lizzysilvertongue_*
Guest_lizzysilvertongue_*
-
- Guests
Posted 01 April 2012 - 03:12 AM
I am absolutely clueless on where to begin looking for something that will make a current in my tank. I want it to be quiet #1and not too pricey. My first few fish shouldn't have a problem because they will be from slow moving boddies of water but I hope to go up to the ozarks and get some darters up there. Links are wonderful, name brands are nice, and whatever the heck you would call a current maker would also be nice. I have been looking at "wave makers" but I wasn't sure if they were the same thing. any help is appreciated
#2
Guest_CatWhat_*
Guest_CatWhat_*
-
- Guests
Posted 01 April 2012 - 07:16 AM
I use an propeller to circulate the water at the back of my 75g. There are loads of brand names but the one I have is a hydor koralia with a flow rate of 400gph. It doesnt make a sound at all because it is submersible and sticks to the glass by use of a double magnet. It was $55CDN.
#3
Guest_EricaWieser_*
Guest_EricaWieser_*
-
- Guests
Posted 01 April 2012 - 08:53 AM
I know how you feel, lizzysilvertongue. Right now I'm designing two 75 gallon tanks and I'm running into the same questions. I think the word you're looking for is 'powerhead' instead of 'wavemaker'. You'll get the right google search results if you use 'powerhead' and 'pump'.
Unfortunately it's really hard to just say that you need Y gallons per hour (the flow rate that the strength of the powerhead is measured in) for an X gallon tank. It turns out that flow really depends on whether you're pointing the powerhead at a wall (low flow) or whether you're directing the water to flow in a circuitous path (high flow). The same powerhead can make the water move either not at all or a whole bunch. It all depends on how you direct water flow.
Here is an image that demonstrates a tank where the water is directed to flow from the right side to the left side of the tank and then to return under the substrate via PVC tubes back to the powerhead: http://www.loaches.c...manifold_02.JPG
Website with more information: http://www.loaches.c...manifold-design
That tank will have much more flow with even a smaller powerhead because the layout gives the water somewhere to go. If you push on water and the only place it has to flow is into a wall, the water has high resistance to motion and you need a really strong force to make it move. If you push on water and simultaneously pull it from the other direction, making it move in a path, well, the water will have less resistance to motion and a much smaller force can be used. So what kind of flow you have in your tank depends yes on the powerhead a little bit, but also very much on the flow setup. For that reason there isn't a really accurate way to say "Y gallon per hour power head would be good in a X gallon sized tank" because there's more that goes into it than just the size of the powerhead.
I guess what we can do for you is give you example setups. I bet someone on the NANFA forum has done a 45 gallon stream tank before and might have some tips from their personal experience in what powerhead they had and how they had it positioned and how the specific fish species they kept reacted. In general unless there is water physically leaving the tank by splashing out, except for that, riffle fish can't really have too much flow. They'll move to a lower flow region of the tank if they're tired, but usually they love sitting there [darters] right under the powerhead in the highest flow region. That's where the food flows by in the wild.
Unfortunately it's really hard to just say that you need Y gallons per hour (the flow rate that the strength of the powerhead is measured in) for an X gallon tank. It turns out that flow really depends on whether you're pointing the powerhead at a wall (low flow) or whether you're directing the water to flow in a circuitous path (high flow). The same powerhead can make the water move either not at all or a whole bunch. It all depends on how you direct water flow.
Here is an image that demonstrates a tank where the water is directed to flow from the right side to the left side of the tank and then to return under the substrate via PVC tubes back to the powerhead: http://www.loaches.c...manifold_02.JPG
Website with more information: http://www.loaches.c...manifold-design
That tank will have much more flow with even a smaller powerhead because the layout gives the water somewhere to go. If you push on water and the only place it has to flow is into a wall, the water has high resistance to motion and you need a really strong force to make it move. If you push on water and simultaneously pull it from the other direction, making it move in a path, well, the water will have less resistance to motion and a much smaller force can be used. So what kind of flow you have in your tank depends yes on the powerhead a little bit, but also very much on the flow setup. For that reason there isn't a really accurate way to say "Y gallon per hour power head would be good in a X gallon sized tank" because there's more that goes into it than just the size of the powerhead.
I guess what we can do for you is give you example setups. I bet someone on the NANFA forum has done a 45 gallon stream tank before and might have some tips from their personal experience in what powerhead they had and how they had it positioned and how the specific fish species they kept reacted. In general unless there is water physically leaving the tank by splashing out, except for that, riffle fish can't really have too much flow. They'll move to a lower flow region of the tank if they're tired, but usually they love sitting there [darters] right under the powerhead in the highest flow region. That's where the food flows by in the wild.
Edited by EricaWieser, 01 April 2012 - 09:19 AM.
#4
Guest_EricaWieser_*
Guest_EricaWieser_*
-
- Guests
Posted 01 April 2012 - 09:11 AM
Does anyone know what the flow would be like if I put a 1500 gph powerhead in the top corner of a four foot long 75 gallon aquarium and pointed it diagonally across its length? I've been looking at these two models:
http://www.newegg.co...-9SIA0WG0879487
http://www.saltwater...d_1500_gph.html
I don't know which one is better; they're both about the same price and much less expensive than anything at my local pet store. For the same price Petsmart offers a 700 GPH pump (less than half the GPH): http://www.petsmart....ductId=11000161
Is 1500 GPH overkill?
http://www.newegg.co...-9SIA0WG0879487
http://www.saltwater...d_1500_gph.html
I don't know which one is better; they're both about the same price and much less expensive than anything at my local pet store. For the same price Petsmart offers a 700 GPH pump (less than half the GPH): http://www.petsmart....ductId=11000161
Is 1500 GPH overkill?
Edited by EricaWieser, 01 April 2012 - 09:20 AM.
#5
Guest_Yeahson421_*
Guest_Yeahson421_*
-
- Guests
Posted 01 April 2012 - 10:34 AM
No, the 1500 would be great. I use two of these on my 75 and love them: http://www.google.co...ed=0CEgQ8wIwAg# (I put them on the circulation pump mode) . One would be awesome for a 45 gallon. Maybe put a pump on the other end to suck in some of the water and push it through the tube back to the side the other pump was on.
Edited by Yeahson421, 01 April 2012 - 10:40 AM.
#6
Guest_EricaWieser_*
Guest_EricaWieser_*
-
- Guests
Posted 01 April 2012 - 10:46 AM
Wow, that's a great price. Thank you for the linkNo, the 1500 would be great. I use two of these on my 75 and love them: http://www.google.co...ed=0CEgQ8wIwAg#
#11
Guest_lizzysilvertongue_*
Guest_lizzysilvertongue_*
-
- Guests
Posted 01 April 2012 - 06:28 PM
Ok im new at all this, i got my tank used and i cleaned itt up really good. It came with a filter/pump thing that's good for 70 gallons, so I figure I don't need anything that filters...idk. Can I aim my current so that it bounces back of the wall and creates a circular motion instead of straight across. I'm a little sceptical that the sponge intake things cut down on any turbulance. Do they or is that not the purpose? My tank is pretty tall and long but not very wide. It is a "show tank" if that has any real meaning. I got it thinking darters would chill on the bottom, topminnow would be near the top and other stuff might hang around in between.
#12
Guest_jeffreyconte_*
Guest_jeffreyconte_*
-
- Guests
Posted 01 April 2012 - 08:44 PM
If you want to set up a stream tank, then the suggestions described above are useful. However, I would like to note that many darters will do just fine without current. i have kept several different species in a standard set up and they have thrived.
#13
Michael Wolfe
-
- Board of Directors
-
- North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage
Posted 01 April 2012 - 08:55 PM
That tank will have much more flow with even a smaller powerhead because the layout gives the water somewhere to go. If you push on water and the only place it has to flow is into a wall, the water has high resistance to motion and you need a really strong force to make it move. If you push on water and simultaneously pull it from the other direction, making it move in a path, well, the water will have less resistance to motion and a much smaller force can be used.
Is this really true? I mean isn't it easier to push water thru water than it is to overcome all of the additional friction and the twists and turns of the plumbing? I have often wondered this and it is one of the reasons that I have never built a manifold. Seems like you are adding a lot of friction and flow resistance when you could just aim the flow around the tank (like across the front and around towards the back). Do you have any, chemical engineering stuff to throw into this one way or the other?
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin
#14
Guest_lizzysilvertongue_*
Guest_lizzysilvertongue_*
-
- Guests
Posted 01 April 2012 - 09:02 PM
All I was saying is that I don't quite understand the point of the feed back loop. My grandparents have an endless pool and the water in it circulates back around. Just wondering why or why not it is a good idea vs. the other way. If you only have two little points sucking the water back thru, it doesn't seem like it would cut down on resistance much. I guess i could ask my cousin, he's about to graduate with a degree in engineering.
The darters from my local area won't need a current. If I get any from fast moving streams I will need the current (such as the ozarks). My professor was pretty insistant that i needed a current. He was going to help me collect some.
The darters from my local area won't need a current. If I get any from fast moving streams I will need the current (such as the ozarks). My professor was pretty insistant that i needed a current. He was going to help me collect some.
#15
Guest_EricaWieser_*
Guest_EricaWieser_*
-
- Guests
Posted 01 April 2012 - 09:22 PM
(My bachelor's degree is in chemical engineering)Is this really true? ... Do you have any, chemical engineering stuff to throw into this one way or the other?
It's the basic theory behind electric current; the electrons at the end of the wire have to move if you want the electrons near the voltage source to.
Yes, pushing the water in a loop works too. I was just trying to explain the idea that you should have somewhere you expect the water you're pushing to go. Two example are having two powerheads, one at each end of the oval (see picture below) or having the intake for the powerheads be at the opposite side of the tank.I mean isn't it easier to push water thru water than it is to overcome all of the additional friction and the twists and turns of the plumbing? I have often wondered this and it is one of the reasons that I have never built a manifold. Seems like you are adding a lot of friction and flow resistance when you could just aim the flow around the tank (like across the front and around towards the back).
Left and Right circuitous flow option:
Up and Down powerhead and sponge circuitous flow option:
Yes, there is a reduction in flow if the tubes are too narrow. But if they're wide enough they wouldn't reduce flow that much. Also, having the flow near the substrate is a good idea for a darter tank. The first picture I posted has the flow going around the front and back of the tank and could be hindered by a planted back wall like I have in my tanks. The second option would allow for a planted or three dimensionally rocky back wall.
Both options work better at creating a current than a single powerhead splattering water into the middle of the tank.
The idea is, thinking about where you're pushing the water and giving it somewhere to go prevents it from building up pressure (and resistance) being stuck pushed into a wall. A turbulent single powerhead pushing water from one corner into the middle of the tank in general just makes a turbulent region near the output of the powerhead. You want smooth, laminar flow. In a circuit. That's the goal. A less powerful powerhead inspiring a laminar flow can make for a strong current over a longer distance than a more powerful powerhead pushing a lot of water making a small turbulent region.
Edited by EricaWieser, 01 April 2012 - 09:59 PM.
#16
Guest_EricaWieser_*
Guest_EricaWieser_*
-
- Guests
Posted 01 April 2012 - 10:21 PM
The thing is I don't have any practical experience with what GPH to make the powerheads in my new 75 gallon tanks. *sighs* 1200 and 1500 and 700 GPH are all just numbers to me. I don't really know what they mean. So I'm browsing powerheads right now and looking at setups on youtube. The issue is the strength of the current can be so different depending on the setup that the size of the powerhead seems like a really small variable. But I like the $20 1200 GPH idea. That's a lot more GPH than you get for that money at the local pet store. Thank you for the recommendation, Yeahson421.
Edited by EricaWieser, 01 April 2012 - 10:24 PM.
#17
Guest_lizzysilvertongue_*
Guest_lizzysilvertongue_*
-
- Guests
Posted 01 April 2012 - 11:05 PM
Yes, pushing the water in a loop works too. I was just trying to explain the idea that you should have somewhere you expect the water you're pushing to go. Two example are having two powerheads, one at each end of the oval (see picture below) or having the intake for the powerheads be at the opposite side of the tank.
Left and Right circuitous flow option:
ok i got you. Um what about your picture with the two powerheads. Do you think one at the lower left end of the tank that pushes water across the substrate to the right side of the tank and then a higher one at the right side of the tank pushing to the left would be good? Like i said my tank isn't that wide. So basically your first picture instead of looking down you looking at the front of the tank.
Left and Right circuitous flow option:
ok i got you. Um what about your picture with the two powerheads. Do you think one at the lower left end of the tank that pushes water across the substrate to the right side of the tank and then a higher one at the right side of the tank pushing to the left would be good? Like i said my tank isn't that wide. So basically your first picture instead of looking down you looking at the front of the tank.
#18
Guest_EricaWieser_*
Guest_EricaWieser_*
-
- Guests
Posted 01 April 2012 - 11:37 PM
Yeah, that would work too. You could connect the upper powerhead via large diameter PVC so the input it was on the other side of the tank. Otherwise its input will be right next to the output of the lower powerhead. That would be counterproductive to flow.ok i got you. Um what about your picture with the two powerheads. Do you think one at the lower left end of the tank that pushes water across the substrate to the right side of the tank and then a higher one at the right side of the tank pushing to the left would be good? Like i said my tank isn't that wide. So basically your first picture instead of looking down you looking at the front of the tank.
Edited by EricaWieser, 01 April 2012 - 11:45 PM.
#19
Guest_EricaWieser_*
Guest_EricaWieser_*
-
- Guests
Posted 01 April 2012 - 11:42 PM
I really like this image of a stream tank: http://www.loaches.c...oaches_tank.jpg
from the website http://www.loaches.c...n-the-fast-lane
from the website http://www.loaches.c...n-the-fast-lane
Edited by EricaWieser, 01 April 2012 - 11:42 PM.
#20
Guest_EricaWieser_*
Guest_EricaWieser_*
-
- Guests
Posted 02 April 2012 - 10:18 AM
ok i got you. Um what about your picture with the two powerheads. Do you think one at the lower left end of the tank that pushes water across the substrate to the right side of the tank and then a higher one at the right side of the tank pushing to the left would be good? Like i said my tank isn't that wide. So basically your first picture instead of looking down you looking at the front of the tank.
Ah, I misunderstood you the first time I responded. You want one on the lower left end and one on the upper right end? *headdesk* I'm sorry for misunderstanding you the first time I responded to your proposed powerhead setup. It's sometimes hard to visualize an image by reading words. I wish I could delete post #18.Yeah, that would work too. You could connect the upper powerhead via large diameter PVC so the input it was on the other side of the tank. Otherwise its input will be right next to the output of the lower powerhead. That would be counterproductive to flow.
Yes, that's a good idea. That setup would provide a circuit route for the water to take, both going away in one direction and coming back in another. The circuit will increase laminar flow and give you a better current. *nods*
Edited by EricaWieser, 02 April 2012 - 10:20 AM.
Reply to this topic
0 user(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users
NANFA Youtube Channel 
