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Ictiobus ID help

Started by Guest_Uland_* , Apr 06 2012 06:55 PM

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20 replies to this topic

#1 Guest_Uland_*

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 06:55 PM

Caught in March in the White River Arkansas Independence county.
This fish is an adult guestimating about 16~18"

I've reviewed just abut every book I have but would love forum help in confirming the ID.

Attached Files

ictiobus 1413 - Copy.JPG 166.89KB 12 downloads

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#2 Guest_dredcon_*

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 10:12 AM

Smallmouth? What did the mouth look like? Just guessing I have no book on me.

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#3 Guest_bbrown_*

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 02:41 PM

Boy it's hard to see the mouth for sure, but I think I can just make out the corners of a terminal mouth meaning it's almost certainly a bigmouth buffalo.
http://gallery.nanfa...th buffalo.html

http://gallery.nanfa...falo mouth.html

http://gallery.nanfa... mouth.jpg.html

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#4 Guest_Uland_*

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 07:05 PM

Dredcon and bbrown,
It's between Black and Smallmouth buffalo Which are both present in this portion of river.
I have very little experience with Ictiobus and not sure if this photo will help distinguish between the two.

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#5 Guest_dredcon_*

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 07:32 PM

The smaller the harder they are to tell apart. I'll be more help when I get back to my books. From what I remember the mouth, body depth, and eyes are the main difference. I think the mouth is the easiest way to differentiate them. It has been een a few years since I have played with them.

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#6 Guest_bbrown_*

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 09:52 PM

Uland, Thanks for the bigger pic, I can see the mouth much better and agree that it's between the black and smallmouth. Do you happen to have a good close up of just the head?
Please let us know which you decide to go with.

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#7 Guest_Uland_*

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 08:00 AM

Uland, Thanks for the bigger pic, I can see the mouth much better and agree that it's between the black and smallmouth. Do you happen to have a good close up of just the head?
Please let us know which you decide to go with.

Head shot per request.
Thanks for the help guys and gals.

ictiobus head.JPG 91.65KB 1 downloads

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#8 Guest_dredcon_*

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 05:38 PM

Mouth width bigger or smaller than eye width? Hard to tell from the picture. The body shape looks more like a black.

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#9 Guest_Uland_*

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 06:00 PM

I'm not sure exactly how the mouth should be measured for this but here's another photo which may not be useful.

1 1443.JPG 127.91KB 1 downloads

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#10 Guest_dredcon_*

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 08:12 PM

I'm gonna say black now. I'll take some pics of the key tomorrow at work.

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#11 Guest_dredcon_*

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 06:26 AM

e2012-04-10_06-10-02_920-1-182746714.jpg 127.82KB 3 downloads

e2012-04-10_06-12-06_310-11343888184.jpg 103.88KB 2 downloads]

e2012-04-10_06-12-24_384-11854560009.jpg 92.85KB 0 downloads

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#12 Guest_Uland_*

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 08:08 AM

Sean,
Indeed all signs point to Ictiobus niger. Thanks for your help.
Do others use these measurements with reliability on adult fish?
I grew up with the Pflieger book and want it to be right for this fish [-o<

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#13 Guest_farmertodd_*

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 08:14 AM

Which key is that Sean?

Todd

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#14 Guest_dredcon_*

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 08:42 AM

Which key is that Sean?

Todd

It's the Alabama book.

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#15 Guest_dredcon_*

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 08:50 AM

Sean,
Indeed all signs point to Ictiobus niger. Thanks for your help.
Do others use these measurements with reliability on adult fish?
I grew up with the Pflieger book and want it to be right for this fish

I never tried them. It has been a long time since I have sampled any buffalo. But I would bet that they wou work well on adults. I'll give it a shot if I ever make out of the salt.

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#16 Guest_Uland_*

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 01:08 PM

Thanks again dredcon, I really appreciate your help.
I hope to use the forum to poll for the usefulness of these measurements to help me wrap my head around the Ictiobus ID's in the future.
I need all the identification experience I can get!

I have below a photo from the same river, same day that I believe to be an Ictiobus bubalus Smallmouth buffalo.

Posted Image

http://gallery.nanfa...ageViewsIndex=1

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#17 Guest_smbass_*

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 10:08 PM

Uland these two species are very very difficult to tell apart unless you have a whole bunch of them and you can make a pile of each... So unless your electrofishing a big river that has both with some frequency they are two fish that are quite difficult to get good at separating. I have not had my hands on many of these in a couple of years now but I do think you have them correct. Based on the body shape alone If those two fish came from the same site and I had them next to one another I would call the first a black and the second a smallmouth. You better be bringing that big photo tank to the convention, I want to get you photoing some suckers and other large fish on Thursday. Hopefully that will include a blue sucker...

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#18 Guest_Uland_*

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 10:40 PM

Thanks for posting Brian.
You are not the first to say these are difficult fish to distinguish and I'm not terribly anxious to pull the trigger on this ID until lots of folks think this is right.
Your experience with such suckers though, makes me feel pretty darn good.

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#19 Guest_NateTessler13_*

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 07:19 AM

I'd like to chime in by saying that the exaggerated hump on the keeled nape is usually a giveaway that you're looking at a smallmouth buffalo. Many smallmouth buffalo do not have this feature, but if you see the hump, you can rule out bigmouth and black. I would also agree that your first fish is a black buffalo. The key posted by dredcon really sums up the differences between the two nicely.

Edited by NateTessler13, 09 May 2012 - 07:19 AM.

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#20 Guest_BenCantrell_*

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 12:55 PM

Hey Uland, I hope you don't mind if I bring up this old thread. I have a buffalo that I'd like ID help with as well. I caught it in Sandy Creek by Henry, IL, about a half mile from its confluence with the Illinois River. The water in the stream was clear. Using dredcon's key posted above, it should be a black buffalo. Does anyone agree or disagree with how I made my measurements?

Using lines in powerpoint I measure the mouth to eye ratio as 1.46.
Posted Image