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Shiner ID

Started by Guest_jetajockey_* , Apr 15 2012 01:36 PM

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6 replies to this topic

#1 Guest_jetajockey_*

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 01:36 PM

Well for a while I thought these guys were pt.hypselopterus but they obviously differ in several ways from the ones in my area (escambia bay drainage). This one was caught in the choctawhatchee bay drainage in a fast part of one of the feeder creeks. Sampled several parts of a few creeks and this species was by far the most common.

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and the pt hypselopterus from one of the blackwater river feeder creeks

Posted Image

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#2 Michael Wolfe

Board of Directors

North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 15 April 2012 - 05:01 PM

use your petersons and trust the range maps more than color... the top fish looks fantastic, in color, calm, etc. The otherr pictures look similar but are kind of 'flashed out' the colors are not as dramatic from just the way the photo was taken.

I don know your geography, but use the second edition petersons (which has some new ones described) and you should be able to figure it out.

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

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#3 Guest_jetajockey_*

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 07:03 PM

Thanks, dug into it for a good little bit before I decided to post. It could be that the pt.hypselopterus in the bottom photo are also on the younger side. I'm going to go hunting for some in a few days since they are fairly nearby, just to see.

The one in the top photo looks just like a pt.signipinnis with different colors, body shape is almost spot on, though.

Here's a photo of a pt.signipinnis that was collected last year in a fast moving drainage ditch.
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#4 Guest_jetajockey_*

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 02:05 AM

I think I got it. Since it seems like several species fall under the 'sailfin shiner' complex, the top is a pt.hypselopterus, while the 2 under it are pt."metallicus". Maybe Doug will chime in soon.

Edited by jetajockey, 16 April 2012 - 02:05 AM.

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#5 Michael Wolfe

Board of Directors

North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 16 April 2012 - 06:12 AM

right, metallicus, stonei, hypselopteris, grandipinnis, eurozonus (?) and maybe a couple other new ones are all pretty similar looking and were split out as separate species based on subtle (to my untrained eye anyway) differences and on drainage. This has been discussed in a couple of papers and in some threads here that you might be able to find by searching pteronotropis here on the forum.

The signipinnis is a different guy altogether.

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

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#6 Guest_Doug_Dame_*

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 08:45 PM

right, metallicus, stonei, hypselopteris, grandipinnis, eurozonus (?) and maybe a couple other new ones are all pretty similar looking and were split out as separate species based on subtle (to my untrained eye anyway) differences and on drainage. This has been discussed in a couple of papers and in some threads here that you might be able to find by searching pteronotropis here on the forum.

I think a Pteronotropis from the Choctawhatchee is going to still be a hypselopterus, per my reading of Dr. Brady Porter's presentation from NANFA-2009 in Tampa. Next over would be grandipinnis, in the Apalachicola drainage but not on the coast. Grandipinnis has somewhat larger dorsal and anal fins, the caudal spot is more of an oval and conspicuous, the anal fin's trailing edge is almost straight, and the fins have a bit of an orange tint. Whereas hypselopterus has an anal fin with a bit of a hook to it, a less distinct caudal spot (because the lateral band continues strong to the tail), the dorsal fin has black pigments all the way out to the edge, and the fins are clear near the body but yellow/amber further out. Brady doesn't mention it, but his px also show an upper black lip on the hypselopterus and a not-black lip on grandipinnis.

Based on the location and the fact those characteristics seem to match your top picture pretty well, amateur me thinks it's hypselopterus.

I like it almost as much as I like your signipinnis. Never get tired of seeing those.