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$10 dollar low tech indoor tank build (pics)

Started by Guest_mywan_* , Apr 23 2012 07:41 AM

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17 replies to this topic

#1 Guest_mywan_*

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 07:41 AM

I started building a low tech filterless indoor pool to experiment with. I used a $10 dollar child swimming pool from the dollar store, like what I use outdoors for wild frogs to breed in. This is the initial setup (album linked):

Here it is much closer to being finished (album linked):

I used the swimming pool to maximize the surface area to water volume ratio. If you look close you'll see were I had to reinforce the table with some extra legs. The flat stone in the corner is to allow the option of a waterfall. At the base of the waterfall is a small enclosed region for a refugium, where plants will be growing and harboring macroinvertebrate. Hopefully the rocks will provide enough thermal mass to stabilize temps in an unairconditioned house. Mosquitoes will also have access, since my house is well ventilated most of the summer. The first fish to go in will be a few Gambusia holbrooki (eastern mosquitofish). After it cycles a bit anyway. Not sure what else to include.

It's not entirely complete yet. I'm going to add stone up around each side and top of the waterfall stone and cover the front edge of the table a bit better. I'll update with some pics. Otherwise, what you see is about it. The waterfall is optional so that a single standard powerhead will operate it if I so choose. No other filtration is built in, though I have the giant portable PVC filter I posted earlier if I need some short term filtration.

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#2 Guest_steve_*

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 12:51 PM

This is fascinating and looking like a beautiful set up. Is this close enough to a window to be getting ample hours of direct sunlight, or do you have other ideas for that? Thanks for posting this. Definitely looking forward to the updates.

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#3 Guest_mywan_*

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 01:35 PM

It's only close enough to a window to get indirect light, but I will have a light fixture over it. I'm not going to be too concerned about lots of light, since the only plants will be emergent. I also have a floor lamp nearby with 5 independently movable overhead light fixtures that can be moved over anywhere in a 6 foot radius. The main light for it will be suspended from the ceiling so that its height and angle is adjustable, and look good as a room light fixture by itself. No sense in lighting that can't also be used for the whole room.

Any suggestions of what other natives might do well in it, besides mosquitofish. Can't depend on the waterfall for any really significant flow rate and the summer temps is likely to be in a fairly high range. That puts some limits on fish choices.

I'm working on a ventilation system for the house to better control temps without an air conditioner. This includes ceiling level airtight insulation with an exhaust fan mounted in the attic. The ceiling is slightly cathedralized with a closable vent running along the high point the entire length of the room. This is where the attic fan will draw air from. White FRP board is also going over the roof to keep the roof temps way down. So even in direct sunlight the roof will be as cool as the shade. Plus a few other minor tweaks. Also hoping the thermal mass of the big rocks and evaporative cooling from the waterfall help some. Still have to finish a lot of it before I know just how cool I can keep the house (and water) in the hottest part of the summer. I might also add a big cistern outside in the shade to circulate cooler water.

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#4 Michael Wolfe

Board of Directors

North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 23 April 2012 - 02:07 PM

Florida Flagfish, or any of the non-studfish Fundulus (like F.chrysotus or linealatus... they stay smaller than studfish) should be able to handle the higher temps and eat all the mosquitoes you might ever see. I have a crap-load of really small (smaller than dimes) Flagfish from a successful breeding last summer... I can bring you some if you decide you want to try them.

With slightly cooler water and the waterfall you could even try swamp darters (my opinion anyways)... they would be cool if you had a lighter colored bottom and could see them hopping about.

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

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#5 Guest_decal_*

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 03:26 PM

How are the rocks fixed to the plastic? It looks great. I recently bought a 650 gallon plastic stock tank from Tractor Supply for use as an outdoor tub pond. I love it, but it does look a bit tacky.

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#6 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 04:00 PM

Any suggestions of what other natives might do well in it, besides mosquitofish. Can't depend on the waterfall for any really significant flow rate and the summer temps is likely to be in a fairly high range. That puts some limits on fish choices.

Pygmy sunfish (Elassoma genus) come from stagnant water and tolerate a high summer temperature well. Elassoma evergladei, okefenokee, and gilberti are all examples.

But with the large surface area that you have, it's a unique opportunity to do a flatfish tank. For example hogchokers, flounders, etc. One day I want a huge wide tank so I can have a flying gurnard. They're found off the coast of Florida and they're just gorgeous. Are there any rays or skates native around your area? You could have your own petting tank.

Edited by EricaWieser, 23 April 2012 - 04:01 PM.

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#7 Guest_njJohn_*

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 09:05 AM

If you leave the window open, you just may have another wild frog breeding pond. :biggrin:

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#8 Guest_mywan_*

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 11:35 PM

Michael,
I'm doing some research but I might just take you up on that offer. I like sticking with fish that are not only native but come from the immediate region, so I have some list to go through. I really need to see how hot the water is actually going to get over the summer and temperature tolerances are hard to find for some fish. I was even thinking of extending the rocks down to the floor to increase the thermal mass. If I can retain enough nighttime temps it should help a lot, for the pool and the house. My house is not 'normal' anyway.

Decal,
The rocks are not actually fixed to anything. Just takes awhile to get the right fit for them to be good and stable, but it stands up to me banging around under the table to insure the extra bracing is sufficient and leveling it out. I want to be able to break it down and reconstruct it in the future. Around the edges, on the inside, rocks with mostly flat parallel surfaces were used to provide a wide stable base or shelf for the more irregular rocks to carry over the top edge of the pool, with the exception of the quartz vein. It was so flat and long I used it to span a more a more unstable gap and filled in under it with smaller less important rocks. Smaller rocks were fitted into the small remaining holes to give it a more irregular look, as if the rocks have not been ordered a certain way for stability. The bottom rocks were my thinnest flat rocks with small gaps left in many places. A few handfuls of gravel was then used to fill in and outline these rocks. It gives an appearance of greater depth, like larger rocks under soil with the top surface jutting slightly out in the water with gravel that settled in the crevices. The waterfall rock is the only landscaping rock I used, but it is a real rock from a spare I had laying around. The bottom edge extends under the water about a half inch so it shouldn't leak even if it gets wet behind it. The outside rocks got much larger with a bigger contrast in sizes for an even more irregular look.

On your stock tank I would consider taking a mix of gravel and small lava stone and sprinkling it over a plastic mesh with some adhesive to bind it. You can adhere somewhat larger very flat rocks to it first with large gaps. Then use the gravel mix to fill in the gaps, much like the bottom. Keep it thin enough to retain a certain amount of flexibility, but for any curved corners you still want it more or less glued at the right curvature. This mesh can then have hooks that clip over the top edge. In the corner, were the side and bottom meet, line it with some medium sized rocks to give the transition an irregular dimensional look and cover the bottom of the mesh. The rest of the bottom rocks can be done just like in my pool. To cover the top edge you first need to pile stone up the outside to a point were rocks that extend over the top lip will be mostly weighted to the outside of the tank. That way any dislodged stones will tend to the outside, rather than falling on your fish. Backwards from my approach, but you have a much larger volume to deal with and do not want to eat up too much water volume with rocks. You can even pile these outside rock up enough to include a waterfall if you want, but would require larger more stable stones to be built up on a small section of the inside. I prefer reconstructable designs, rather than something that is built to be permanent but never is. Makes correcting flaws a lot easier to.

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#9 Guest_mywan_*

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 11:42 PM

If you leave the window open, you just may have another wild frog breeding pond.

Could happen. The grey tree frogs crawl all over the outside of my house at night in the summer. I've even had 2 snakes (I know of) crawl in and one got in my bed. Guess it was warm there

.

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#10 Guest_steve_*

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 12:22 AM

If your relative humidity isn’t too high, a fan on your waterfall could drop the water temperature a few more degrees. I’ve been having some success with keeping the water temperature of a 150 gallon tank a little cooler by using the evaporative cooling ability of placing a fan on the cascading water of an algae scrubber. I’ll be posting more information on that in another thread before too long, but I have seen that it can buy you a few degrees F if the relative humidity isn’t too high. I also wonder if misting your rocks with water a couple times per day or so could eventually have a noticeable cooling effect on the water?

I like your idea of circulating through a cistern for cooling. The bottom of my 750 gallon cistern is about 5ft. below the surface of the ground. Right now the water coming from the bottom of it is about 56^oF. It does get a little warmer when the weather is hot, but I don’t think it ever gets any hotter than the mid 60^o’s F. It might be a little labor intensive and/or expensive, but it sure seems like it should work if the volume of water in the cistern is large enough.

I'd like to have more grey tree frogs around my house. I'd actually like to have bull frogs bellowing in the house, but my wife says "NO!

".

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#11 Guest_exasperatus2002_*

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 11:49 AM

Great build. Cant wait till its up & running. I love grey tree frogs. I tried keeping one as a pet. The males call can be obnoxiously loud when its coming from inside your home. I was living at home at the time & was forced to get rid of mine. Its alot louder then the tropical frogs I was keeping like Kassina maculata, Melanophryniscus stelzneri, red eyes, Phyllomedusa savagii..ect.

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#12 Michael Wolfe

Board of Directors

North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 26 April 2012 - 08:32 PM

The are also obnoxiously loud even from outside when the they use those little suction cups to hang on the windows of the house and call to the ladies... turns the whole piece of glass into a reverberation device... but they are cool little dudes with the yellow orange under pants!

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

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#13 Guest_mywan_*

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 02:20 AM

Grey tree frogs are my favorite and I like them singing in the house. females tend to be more docile and wild caught ones will often almost immediately go to sleep on your finger.

The pool now has a few mosquito larva and some pond snails. I spent a couple of days out in the creaks and brought back an interesting plant that is doing very well in the pool. I'll post some pics and try to identify it. It's somewhat similar but larger than what I posted before that the tadpoles ate. The water temp during the day stays at least 7 degrees lower than outside temps (highest daytime water temp seen so far is 74 to 84 degrees outside). The roof hasn't been whitened out yet this year and I'm still closing up the keep a bit of warmth at night. I haven't opened the roof ventilation yet either. Nighttime water temps stay 10 or 12 degrees above outside temps. Perhaps the difference will improve as it warms up and I get the summer ventilation going and the water is allowed to cool more at night. I'll just have to wait and see how well I can do.

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#14 Guest_mywan_*

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 02:26 AM

Reporting back on what I've observed so far with this setup. On 90 to 95 degree days the water temp consistently gets up around 86 degrees during the day, and remains around 78 to 80 degrees at night. However, we had quiet a few days where the temp topped 105 degrees, yet the highest water temp I ever observed was 88 degrees. The only fish I have in it still are 3 tiny fry I took locally that was in a wash area that would soon dry up. They were so tiny I'm still not sure exactly what they are, but are Cyprinidae and probably Notropis. After they grew a bit the line down their side is fairly distinct. They are growing fairly well even though they've never been fed. They have done well through the hottest part of the summer. The setup hasn't changed since the pics I posted, and no circulation pump or waterfall has been added to date.

These water temps put significant, but not too extreme, limits on what I can consider keeping in it. The temps actually fair better than standard aquariums under the same condition. I basically have the information I need to consider inhabitants now. The pool also has a few pond snails, which has done well and have raised some young. These snails have always died in my standard tanks, even when kept in the air conditioned main house where I rarely go. The water remains completely clear of any algae, with the exception that some of the rocks on bottom maintain a splotchy green tint with no meaningful thickness.

I did have one Gray tree frog come inside to the pool and sing at night for about a week just prior to the 105 degree temp spikes during the day. That was the only one to take interest in my inside pool, though quiet a few (various kinds) sing at the outside pool near my front door that is essentially the same size.

In the past week I have also had a toad frog that comes in my front door every night and hunts around my foot stool. We've recently had a large cricket explosion and they come in and run around on my floor. This toad has figured out that these crickets are much easier to catch on an open floor. It knows the way to the front door and except for last night hops out every morning shortly after daylight. Last night it decided to spend the day under my chair. It has become so fat that it can no longer stalk its prey like it did when it first came in. When it hops it rolls forward when it lands because its belly hits first. It's eyeballing me as I type this :tongue:

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#15 Guest_steve_*

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 10:05 PM

Even though the temps are a little high, that's a very impressive difference between water temp. and air temp. I'm looking forward to hear and seeing what other kinds of fish you try in it.

I love watching toads eat and hunt. Sounds like you've got a really cool "open environment" type of place. Thanks for the update.

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#16 Guest_mywan_*

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 12:21 AM

I think the key to the cooler temps is the large surface area. It certainly helps oxygenation in uncirculated water. Most heat spikes are due to thermal radiation rather than conduction. With a large surface area any kinetic energy transfers that exceed some maximum gets evaporated. In smaller tanks with more limited surface area much of the energy that would have simply been carried away by evaporation is trapped behind glass and remains. Even very cool water has a significant percentage of individual molecules with enough energy the water would boil if they all carried that same energy, per the Maxwell Distribution.

Anyway, this is what I wanted to observe before thinking too heavily on what to stock it with. The 3 fry in there now were basically guinea pigs. I figured a couple of fish fry from a soon to dry up watershed made them good candidates as guinea pigs. They can stay as long as they survive. Time to start thinking about what else to stock, but I'm thinking of reconstructing it a little lower down within a larger boxed in terrain. That way the pool can be sunken in dirt adding even more thermal mass and more visibility from my computer comfy chair.

The toad has decided to take up residence inside during the day. Thursday morning it left outside again, only a few hours earlier than usual. Then about 10 am came hopping back in and picked a spot right under the pool table in the pics. Then slept through today on top of a wal mart plastic bag I left right out in the middle of my floor. Guess I'll leave it there if it likes it that much. It's night time hunting ground remains right around my foot stool. I built to place explicitly to be an open environment.

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#17 Guest_pongo_*

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 08:31 AM

neat idea, lol about the toad. I miss the tree frogs and gecko types from the south, in Hawaii it's considered good luck to have them indoors, so you are a lucky one

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#18 Guest_mywan_*

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 08:09 PM

Just reporting in that the cyprinids in this tank grew quiet well over the summer with no external feeding, power filtration, etc. Effectively went from newborn fry to adults.The only power is to a light, in which an algae film grows directly under it. They still spook and hide quiet easily, but they can be observed feeding on the algal biofilm and picking through the thin mud and gravel. Not a single fish death, which all began as the tiniest fry. The alga is quiet tame and never actually gets thick enough to entirely coat the rocks it grows on. Very natural looking in that respect. The pond snails have also done quiet well, and even raised a few generations of young. Though the birth rate appears to be well controlled as the snail population remains at a very reasonable low level. In my standard aquariums, with far more total water volume but much less surface area, the snails seem to always die within either days a weeks. As winter sets in I doubt they will be getting as much protein from mosquitoes and various bugs. I'll see how that goes before increasing any bioload or expanding on the project any.