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New Okeefenokee Tank!


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#1 Guest_littleguppy_*

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 01:33 PM

Hey all!
I just joined the forum today, after reading posts with valuable and extremely helpful information on Okeefenokees. I became really interested in this little fish after coming across a youtube video of them. Once I saw the video, I HAD to have them. So i ordered some, and they are here , and doing well! I had a 20 Long that has been running for quite awhile. It had some guppies in it, but since I was slimming down my guppy collection, I decided it was time for something different from what I usually keep - and abit of a challenge.
I must say, The fish I ordered they are smaller then I visualized, but I think they are super cute! And I read that they are shy, however they aren't as shy as I thought! Since I got them , they come to the front of the tank to check me out, and there are plenty of hiding spaces. I have 9 of them , but i can only count 5-7 at one given time.I seen males were coloring up soon after I put them in the tank.

They appear healthy and happy - but my usual fish I keep is a guppy, so I must ask -
*are there any behavioral symtoms to know that there might be a sickness or problem with this fish. I find they stay low to the ground and never in a wide open space.
*how long do eggs incubate, how often do these fish spawn- how many eggs per spawn
*at what age/size is a male distinguisable from a female ( I received some smaller fish so would like to know)
*what type of snails are safe with these fish (and their Eggs!!!)
*are they escape artists (jumping out the tank!!!)
* what are the main challenges in keeping these fish

Thanks, and here are some pics of the tank they are in.
:)

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#2 Guest_Yeahson421_*

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 05:22 PM

That's a great looking tank! I'm going to be getting some E. evergladei soon, so hearing this is definitely encouraging!

#3 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 06:48 PM

Hello! Welcome to the NANFA forum :) Your tank is gorgeous, great job.

I keep Elassoma gilberti, a species very closely related to Elassoma okefenokee, so I can try to answer your questions based upon my experience with my gilberti.

*are there any behavioral symtoms to know that there might be a sickness or problem with this fish. I find they stay low to the ground and never in a wide open space.

Usually they don't show any symptoms of illness before dropping dead. They've got about a one year life span, so once they reach the end they of that they tend to die with no obvious symptoms. I have lost a few to illness but very few. Here's a video of a male Elassoma gilberti with dropsy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-XM5Qqm_ak
That was the only male I ever saw with dropsy. Other than him they really are more likely to just up and die instead of giving you warning signs. One time I poisoned my whole tank with too much algaecide. I noticed that the Elassoma gilberti died (I thought it was from something else, trying to wean them onto flakes) but it was only when the guppies started itching themselves on things and my plants started melting that I realized it couldn't just be starvation. Guppies readily rub themselves on tank decorations when they're being housed in foul water. Elassoma don't.

*how long do eggs incubate, how often do these fish spawn- how many eggs per spawn

According to http://www.nanfa.org.../elassoma.shtml (excellent read, give it a look), the fecundity range of Elassoma okefenokee is 20 to 25 and percent egg survival is 45-50%.
Recently I placed 4 female Elassoma gilberti and 2 males in a 10 gallon tank to themselves. Within two weeks they had adjusted to their new home enough to spawn. I removed the fish from the spawning tank at the first sign of fry, so I estimate I got about three days' worth of eggs. I count about a dozen, so I estimate that between one and two dozen are in the tank, but I won't know the real number until I drain the tank to put the juveniles in the 55 gallon tank with their parents.
To give you an idea of their population growth, in the fall of 2010 I started out with 5 Elassoma gilberti in a 10 gallon tank. In May of 2011 I drained the 55 gallon tank and removed 84 fish total.

*at what age/size is a male distinguisable from a female ( I received some smaller fish so would like to know)

For mine in my tank setup it's four months ish. That's when they are about one half inch in length. The males at that size begin to get shiny and dark. You can really tell when they start doing dances.

*what type of snails are safe with these fish (and their Eggs!!!)

Elassoma actually eat snails. So snails aren't just safe, they're tasty. My Elassoma gilberti enjoy eating my physa fontinalis, lymnaea, and ramshorn snail babies. One invertebrate I would think twice about adding to an Elassoma tank is shrimp. Elassoma eggs are vulnerable while they lay on the ground before hatching, and Elassoma fry stay tiny for a very long time. Any shrimp inclined to eat them could easily do so.

*are they escape artists (jumping out the tank!!!)

I've never had one jump out ever. These are the least escape prone fish I've ever kept. They flee downward when you're chasing them, so a good tip on catching an Elassoma is going underneath it with a net and then lifting upwards.

* what are the main challenges in keeping these fish

Feeding them. See my topic on grindal worm tips and tricks: http://forum.nanfa.o...ips-and-tricks/
You can also feed them frozen bloodworms. I hold the cube with my planting tweezers (not with my hand; bloodworms develop allergies in most people) and cut the worms in half as they thaw off as I shake the cube around in the tank water.
I feed the fry microworms, which I culture on oatmeal and a tiny bit of yeast (to make the culture smell good). If you lay a coffee filter over the top of the oatmeal the microworms crawl right onto it and are easy to harvest. I also coffee filter the lid so pests can't possibly get in. My cultures are pest free.

Edited by EricaWieser, 04 May 2012 - 06:56 PM.


#4 Guest_littleguppy_*

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 08:41 PM

That's a great looking tank! I'm going to be getting some E. evergladei soon, so hearing this is definitely encouraging!

Thanks! You will really be glad you got them. I know I am! :)

#5 Guest_littleguppy_*

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 08:50 PM

Erica,
Thank you for taking the time to be so helpful. Your knowledge is very much appreciated! Good to know they are not jumpers, as you can see there is no lid on my tank!!

So surprised when I read the part about how your population grew from Fall to Spring. Thats awesome. You mentioned you removed the adults once eggs are found. Have you left them with their eggs and does this effect their survival rate.

I had some assassin snails in that tank i took them out i thought they might demolish any eggs. but i have plenty of ramshorn i can put in there.

I wanted to add the tank pic, mostly because i love seeing pics in forums! thanks for the compliment, i know my tank probably doesnt look native, but i tried to add enough hiding places for them so they will be comfortable. maybe in the future i will attempt a re-do to native style. but that wont be for awhile!!

do the adults also eat microworms? ( i know my guppy adults do)

This is my first time with this type of fish, and im having a hard time knowing if the females are 100% female. Im pretty sure because i cant see any blue glint on them, is there any other noticble differences. body shape, fin etc. Sorry I sound like such a newbie, but i am :) ask me anything about guppies and i can bore you to death.


Thanks and more people outta know about these little fish. They are too cool.

#6 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 10:57 PM

Erica,
Thank you for taking the time to be so helpful.

Sure, no problem. :)

So surprised when I read the part about how your population grew from Fall to Spring. Thats awesome. You mentioned you removed the adults once eggs are found. Have you left them with their eggs and does this effect their survival rate.

Oh, I left them with their eggs from fall to spring. I just chucked a bunch of blackworms in the tank and like 10 Elassoma gilberti and they filled it themselves. It was the perfect tank for a little while there; no feeding, no cleaning, no water changes, nothing. The blackworms lived in the tank and fed the fish, the plants ate the waste, and nitrates didn't accumulate so I didn't need to do a water change.
December 18th: http://gallery.nanfa...resize.jpg.html
January 3rd: http://gallery.nanfa...resize.jpg.html
January 25th: http://gallery.nanfa...01_001.JPG.html
Added some more worms: http://gallery.nanfa...er/034.JPG.html
February 17th: http://gallery.nanfa...h+2011.jpg.html
February 16th: http://gallery.nanfa...llsize.jpg.html
March 1st: http://gallery.nanfa...ze_002.jpg.html
March 12th: http://gallery.nanfa...uarium.jpg.html
March 29th: http://gallery.nanfa...+after.jpg.html
April 13th: http://gallery.nanfa...l+size.jpg.html
May 3rd: http://gallery.nanfa...d+2011.jpg.html
And you just watched them go from a dozen to 84 fish. When I initially moved them out of their starter 10 gallon and into their new 55 gallon home I left about 20 ish fry in there, yeah, but that means 84-20-12=50 ish fish were born and grew up in that 55 gallon tank. No maintenance, no muss, no fuss. Elassoma gilberti don't eat their own young. Their presence can scare their young out of eating and accidentally hurt them that way, but you'd have to have yours super crowded to reduce population growth like that.
The reason why I separated my fish to spawn in the 10 gallon is I think something's going wrong in the 55 gallon right now and fry aren't viable. Maybe the fish are overcrowded. Maybe the plants aren't dense enough. Maybe the guppies are eating them (probably true). I don't know, but the fry aren't making it. I had to mix it up and do something different [put two breeding trios in my 10 gallon tank] because their one-year lifespan means that if you go too long without producing fry you don't have any Elassoma gilberti anymore.

do the adults also eat microworms? ( i know my guppy adults do)

Are you sure your guppies eat microworms? I've got guppies too and I guess they do sort of do a frenzy whenever a cloudy of wiggly is dropped into the water, but they don't really stalk and hunt individual worms, do they? Maybe your baby guppies do? I dunno. I would say I've never seen an adult Elassoma gilberti stalk and hunt a microworm. And they don't do the whole frenzied 'bite at the cloud' thing that guppies do. This is about the most frenzied hunt I've seen an Elassoma give to food:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-0N0fWKkx8

Usually it's just more like "... *GULP*"


This is my first time with this type of fish, and im having a hard time knowing if the females are 100% female. Im pretty sure because i cant see any blue glint on them, is there any other noticble differences. body shape, fin etc.

Check out post #787 of my Elassoma gilberti topic for multiple pictures: http://forum.nanfa.o...i/page__st__780

Edited by EricaWieser, 04 May 2012 - 11:08 PM.


#7 Guest_littleguppy_*

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 02:41 PM

Are you sure your guppies eat microworms? I've got guppies too and I guess they do sort of do a frenzy whenever a cloudy of wiggly is dropped into the water, but they don't really stalk and hunt individual worms, do they? Maybe your baby guppies do? I dunno. I would say I've never seen an adult Elassoma gilberti stalk and hunt a microworm. And they don't do the whole frenzied 'bite at the cloud' thing that guppies do.


Hi Erica!

Yes definately my adult guppies will eat micro worms. I've had most of my guppies since they were babies, and they are used to eating them and recognize them as food. They do eat them all , but dont really hunt. They are more scavenging. A few trios that I bought off aqua bid, did not really recognize it as food at first. I know alot of people who keep guppies feed them microworms.

I am feeding microworms and bloodworms (frozen) for now. They seem to be happy and i've seen them eating both.

There is one male who is black & blue all the time. A few of the other males nope, not dark at all. And they are in a 20L so maybe a few more males will color up eventually?

I guess I will have to see. I tried reading most of your huge thread and it is really informative.

Thanks!

#8 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 04:41 PM

There is one male who is black & blue all the time. A few of the other males nope, not dark at all. And they are in a 20L so maybe a few more males will color up eventually?

Probably. I find that about one to two males per cubic foot will color up and be dominant. It depends on how dense the plants are.

#9 Guest_littleguppy_*

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 08:54 AM

UPDATE!
Well, I've had the fish for just over a week now and things have really changed! They are really adjusting well to their new home. There are 3 black & blue males each in their own part of the tank. This morning I got to see the male doing his dance. It is really beautiful. I really thought I might get bored with these fish, (being used to in-your-face guppies)but now that the males are showing their colors and dancing around, its awesome!
I got 9 fish - I was having trouble identifying male/females. Now I know there are 3 black males and 1 i recognize as a male but hes not turning black.
I think so far i found 2 females. one looks like she has a bump/lump which i never noticed until today (eggs?)
anyways, its really hard to get a good picture of these fish! (more likely its just my crappy camera)

I had 9 fish but i can only really count 6-7 and for the life of me cant count 9. Maybe the other 2 died. I know i have quite a few males and right now looks like a bigger male to female ratio was sent.
I have one bigger okee that looks to have a sunken in belly. I havnt seen it eat . I watched it totally bypass grindal worms, but the other ones are not skinny, and readily eat them.

I also throw in some microworms, i have no idea if they are eating them. I threw in some frozen bloodworms, and they didnt all get eaten. Hmmm.

Anyways will update if some of this dancing leads to baby making. :P

#10 Guest_littleguppy_*

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 11:56 AM

Here are some pics I took today. Are the first and last pictures female??

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#11 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 12:35 PM

Here are some pics I took today. Are the first and last pictures female??

Yes, it looks like it.

#12 Michael Wolfe

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 01:54 PM

Do not worry so much about being able to count Ellasoma... they are the best hiders... everyone that has ever kept them eventually realizes that they ahve more fish than they can see... or count...
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

#13 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 02:01 PM

Do not worry so much about being able to count Ellasoma... they are the best hiders... everyone that has ever kept them eventually realizes that they ahve more fish than they can see... or count...

True story. Last year I was moving and I drained my tank. I estimated that there were probably 50 ish fish in there. Pulling them out one by one, there were 84.

#14 Guest_littleguppy_*

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 03:35 PM

Thats great to know. Thank you both for the info. Pretty cool that you had so many more then you thought you did! Are you going to be selling any anytime soon?

#15 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 03:42 PM

Are you going to be selling any anytime soon?

I'm raising up a batch of fry right now. I want to get fry production going steady before I offer another auction but yeah, my goal is to breed these and post auctions for at least the next four years or so.

You, though, already have Elassoma okefenokee. Which are, unless you're counting the pores in their heads or looking at their DNA, basically identical to Elassoma gilberti.

Edited by EricaWieser, 10 May 2012 - 03:43 PM.


#16 Guest_littleguppy_*

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 04:01 PM

You, though, already have Elassoma okefenokee. Which are, unless you're counting the pores in their heads or looking at their DNA, basically identical to Elassoma gilberti.


Lol!




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