Rosyface Shiner?

Hi, I'm relatively new to the site, and this is one of my first posts. I'm looking for help identifying these shiners that I caught microfishing. The location was the Saline Branch of the Salt Fork Creek in Champaign County, IL. The Salt Fork later becomes part of the Vermillion River and crosses over into IN. When I caught them I initially thought they were emerald shiners because of theie elongated bodies, but stream surveys (I've checked 3 different ones) do not show emeralds in the Salt Fork. Rosyface shiners, on the other hand, have been reported in that area. I don't see the rosy patches on these fish, but maybe that's because they're females or not spawning males?

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

According to this taxonomic key:
Rosyfaces will have a wide lateral band, sharp snout, and their snout is longer than the diameter of their eye (tried to measure this out but it's really tough to tell if it's even or just a smidge bigger).
Emeralds will have a very faint lateral band, blunter snouth, and snout equal or less than diameter of the eye.

I hope somebody else knows a better way to differentiate the two, my book isn't very helpful. I'm going to say that the stream surveyers were probably capable of telling whether they were Rosyface or Emerald so I think they were correct. On the other hand, we can't be certain that every single fisherman has been responsible and avoided dumping out their bait buckets there.

Edited by Orangespotted, 18 June 2012 - 06:50 PM.

The top one looks like a Rosyface. I'm not sure about the second. Do you have Silver Shiners in that area? They look similar to Emerald Shiners. The eye looks right for the 2nd to be a Emerald...but I'm not great @ shiners.

Welcome Ben. As you noted the collection records do not indicate emerald shiners exist in that water while carmine shiners are abundant. That's a good sign but things change a little and mistakes do happen. Also remember that Emerald like larger rivers and carmine prefer medium rivers and creeks (usually the latter).
I believe your first fish looks pretty much like Carmine shiners I see often in the Kankakee river tribs. Emerald vs. Carmine is difficult until you spend some time with them. I generally look at the head shape when comparing the two and even then, it takes time (try and catch many of both in the same day to help). In my opinion, local carmine shiners tend to have a slightly less convex forehead whereas emerald shiners have a handgun "bullet" shaped head. Local Carmine shiners have a more slender body shape and acutely angled head. On local Carmine shiners, the eye is usually more rearward on the head giving them a little shnoz. Honestly your fish lack the "schnoz" look I'm used to seeing but still think they're carmine.

The second fish looks looks like it might be an exhausted spawned out male and the first looks like a spawned out female.

Josh, no N photogenis here...thank goodness we don't have all three in the same water, I'd spend far too much time hunched over the net!

Edited by Uland, 18 June 2012 - 10:15 PM.

They look to be too small to be photogenis, and there's no obvious nasal halfmoon marks.

Thanks for the help guys, it is very much appreciated. It sounds like one or both of them might be Carmines, which is exiting to hear. I suppose the best thing for me to do is continue to go back at different times of year and catch some with spawning colors. Would that already be over with this year?

They look to be too small to be photogenis, and there's no obvious nasal halfmoon marks.

Young photogenis and young rubellus/percobromus are difficult for me to differentiate. I'm always looking for the half-moons and they never seem "obvious" on younger fish. My first thought when I saw the fish in this thread was photogenis, but if you're outside their range, they've got to be percobromus.

I'm starting to think that a shiner aquarium would be a good idea to help me develop my ID skills. Something like 2 of each of 4 or 5 species in a 30 gallon aquarium.

I'm starting to think that a shiner aquarium would be a good idea to help me develop my ID skills. Something like 2 of each of 4 or 5 species in a 30 gallon aquarium.

There is nothing better than going into the field and observing them especially when they aren't colored up.

I agree with you both. Viewing fish in the wild is critical for learning field ID, but having them in your home where you see them on a daily basis is also very helpful. My son's best friends are identical twins. I see them at least a 2 or 3 times a week but still cant tell them apart. My son who spends hours with them nearly every day can ID them in an instant. Same applies to similar fish species.

There is nothing better than going into the field and observing them especially when they aren't colored up.