I just saw this when a member requested some assistance from members: "Sorry Joe, we have a strict policy against in tank identifications. Please make sure you properly identify your fish BEFORE you take them home. "
When I was in university often a good identification depended on taking the fish back to the lab and using a low power microscope. So after seeing your instruction are we to understand that there will be no assistance with identification when field visuals is not enough?
Usil
Fish identification...
Started by
Guest_Usil_*
, Jun 28 2012 04:45 PM
16 replies to this topic
#2
Guest_Orangespotted_*
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Posted 28 June 2012 - 05:54 PM
I just saw this when a member requested some assistance from members: "Sorry Joe, we have a strict policy against in tank identifications. Please make sure you properly identify your fish BEFORE you take them home. "
When I was in university often a good identification depended on taking the fish back to the lab and using a low power microscope. So after seeing your instruction are we to understand that there will be no assistance with identification when field visuals is not enough?
Usil
I can't remember where I read this, but I got the impression that in general take home fish ID's are bad (we don't want anyone getting the idea that they can just grab anything and bring it back without knowing what it is), but really it is more judged on a case-by-case basis. I would appreciate if a mod enlightened us.
EDIT: Like when I asked if my other Orangespotted Sunfish was a hybrid or not; I wasn't positive on the ID and I had it at home but there are no similar fish in the state that require protection and I knew this.
Edited by Orangespotted, 28 June 2012 - 05:55 PM.
#3
Guest_Skipjack_*
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Posted 28 June 2012 - 09:31 PM
The reasons are many.
NANFA is largely represented by this forum. We all need to practice ethical fish collecting, or the laws will get more stringent. Look what has happened in Tennessee.
If you have poor ID skills, you could bring home a T&E species, therefore breaking the law.
The bottom line is. If you can't ID the fish, you really have no business collecting it, and you are not representing the ethics expected of a NANFA member. NANFA must protect itself by not allowing this on a public forum that anyone, including wildlife officers could view.
Our ability to hold conventions in various states largely depends on our image. If we gain a reputation as unethical fish hoarders, we are likely to be unwelcome.
A photo tank is an easy alternative. Take the photo streamside and submit it for identification. Many members are so skilled at ID that a "Uland" quality photo is not needed. Just a decent photo taken with a point and shoot camera is usually adequate. Yes some ID's can be difficult without scale counts, or ray counts, but we are largely laymen, and are not working with a university, so we are not afforded their protection.
Remember, you are representing your organization.
NANFA is largely represented by this forum. We all need to practice ethical fish collecting, or the laws will get more stringent. Look what has happened in Tennessee.
If you have poor ID skills, you could bring home a T&E species, therefore breaking the law.
The bottom line is. If you can't ID the fish, you really have no business collecting it, and you are not representing the ethics expected of a NANFA member. NANFA must protect itself by not allowing this on a public forum that anyone, including wildlife officers could view.
Our ability to hold conventions in various states largely depends on our image. If we gain a reputation as unethical fish hoarders, we are likely to be unwelcome.
A photo tank is an easy alternative. Take the photo streamside and submit it for identification. Many members are so skilled at ID that a "Uland" quality photo is not needed. Just a decent photo taken with a point and shoot camera is usually adequate. Yes some ID's can be difficult without scale counts, or ray counts, but we are largely laymen, and are not working with a university, so we are not afforded their protection.
Remember, you are representing your organization.
Edited by Skipjack, 28 June 2012 - 09:36 PM.
#4
Michael Wolfe
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- Board of Directors
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- North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage
Posted 28 June 2012 - 09:50 PM
Identification Assistance
Rules of ID Section ID requests from home aquaria will not be accepted and topics will be removed. Please take the time to catch, photo and release unidentified fish streamside.
Location, at least general location (state, major drainage, etc) is required for any posts in this section. Posts without location will be removed without question.
This is what we already have posted in the identification section of the forum. And I agree with Matt. We have lots of reasons we need to enforce this rule.
And oh, by the way, it was me that responded and closed the topic.
Rules of ID Section ID requests from home aquaria will not be accepted and topics will be removed. Please take the time to catch, photo and release unidentified fish streamside.
Location, at least general location (state, major drainage, etc) is required for any posts in this section. Posts without location will be removed without question.
This is what we already have posted in the identification section of the forum. And I agree with Matt. We have lots of reasons we need to enforce this rule.
And oh, by the way, it was me that responded and closed the topic.
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin
#5
Guest_farmertodd_*
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Posted 28 June 2012 - 10:17 PM
...and are not working with a university, so we are not afforded their protection.
Just to clarify, Universities may have even more stringent regulations through their permitting to collect fishes than y'all do. I have to have represent my work to two different bodies that must grant me permission to even look at fish (or educate others about those animals). While it is certainly easier to get a collecting permit from a state having a university affiliation, my Ohio permit explicitly states that I may not keep wildlife at my home. And dealing with a wildlife science naive IACUC committee is an entirely different matter altogether. Let me tell you what great fun it is to deal with folks who find it ethical to cut the kidney out of a mouse as a "control", yet their preference for me to look at a fish is to euthenize it so it doesn't "suffer". Yes, they will give me permission to triple-2 1200 fish, but they don't understand "capture, measure and release".
But other than that, I'm in full agreement
Todd
#6
Guest_Skipjack_*
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Posted 29 June 2012 - 12:05 AM
Thanks for the clarification Todd. I find it odd though that your Ohio permit states that you cannot keep fish at home, and mine didn't. It did however require that I notified the local division of wildlife every time I went out, where, and when I would be there. A fishing license was actually easier to deal with.
#7
Guest_Uland_*
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Posted 29 June 2012 - 06:56 AM
Usil,
In the larger picture, the rule comes off as harsh to newer members learning fish ID. This is unfortunate.
I support the rule despite how it alienates some newer members and for the reasons that Skipjack outlined.
It's just a matter of time before endangered fishes are taken home for ID and that's exactly what the rule is designed to prevent.
Freedoms are very difficult to create and much more easily removed. This is an attempt to slow the erosion of these freedoms and give us a little more time to do what we enjoy.
In the larger picture, the rule comes off as harsh to newer members learning fish ID. This is unfortunate.
I support the rule despite how it alienates some newer members and for the reasons that Skipjack outlined.
It's just a matter of time before endangered fishes are taken home for ID and that's exactly what the rule is designed to prevent.
Freedoms are very difficult to create and much more easily removed. This is an attempt to slow the erosion of these freedoms and give us a little more time to do what we enjoy.
#8
Guest_farmertodd_*
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Posted 29 June 2012 - 09:21 AM
A fishing license was actually easier to deal with.
I agree fully. Plus you don't have reports to deal with at the end of the year. I love Michigan for this fact. If I can accomplish what I need to do with a license, they'd prefer I did it that way
Mussels are a whole other matter for permits (which just takes time, no problem), but for them, I don't have to deal with IACUC because they're <ahem> "not animals". I'm not kidding, that's what we were told. So once I get the Fed stuff sorted out with the changes for beans and snuffbox, I'm heading that direction. For now, invasive plants and sediments where mussels occur. No one cares about plants and sediment
The language appeared on the 2009 permits. That's in part why I tore down all my systems, I created a misunderstanding once, and I don't want to do that ever again. So I have some Florida fish right now and have been going through phases with tetras, barbs and now rainbowfish. Pity that, a lot of pictures could be getting generated.... This could be the Lythrurus you wanted to be seeing:
Todd
#9
Guest_gerald_*
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Posted 29 June 2012 - 09:44 AM
I agree the rule is harsh and may in some ways be counter-productive to NANFA's educational mission. I have several times posted pix on this forum of "presumed hybrid" minnows in my home aquaria, and was not treated this way. If a person has checked their state's list of federal and state protected species and is certain that the fish they are taking home are NOT protected species, then I see no problem in allowing aquarium ID requests. Most of us, probably including Michael, have at times brought home odd specimens or juveniles of uncertain ID. So here's a possible compromise: When somebody posts a "what are these fish I caught and brought home" request, let's ask them: 1) where were they caught; 2) what federal or state protected/rare species might occur in that area, and 3) are you sure the fish you have posted are not one of those protected/rare species. If #1 and #2 are provided and #3 is a definite "NO", then the collector has done due diligence to avoid taking protected/rare species. Let's oblige them in that case and offer our ID opinions, as you guys have done for me plenty of times.
#11
Michael Wolfe
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- Board of Directors
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- North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage
Posted 29 June 2012 - 05:02 PM
... Most of us, probably including Michael, have at times brought home odd specimens or juveniles of uncertain ID.
Guilty for sure. But, that does not make it OK. We have to educate one another to make sure we do not break the law... even unintentionally. We are here to (edited for brevity from the NANFA Mission Statement):
- to increase and disseminate knowledge about North America's native fishes and their habitats...
- to promote the conservation of native fishes and the protection/ restoration of natural habitats;
- to advance the captive husbandry of North America's native fishes for the educational, scientific, and conservation benefits it affords...
- to encourage and defend the legal and environmentally responsible collection of native fishes for private aquaria as a valid use of a natural resource;
- to provide a forum for fellowship and camaraderie...
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin
#12
Guest_gerald_*
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Posted 29 June 2012 - 06:32 PM
I dont think anybody has to be "in charge" of enforcement. Whoever sees a "what are these fish I brought home" ID request and wants to jump in can just reply with something like this: (copy and save it if you like):
"Sorry (insert name), but we can't offer ID help on fish in a home aquarium until you tell us: 1) where it was collected; 2) what federal or state protected or rare species might occur in that area, and 3) are you sure the fish you have posted is not a protected or rare species. Conservation and compliance with federal and state wildlife laws are core values of NANFA. We just want to make sure that fish collectors using the NANFA forum are making a reasonable effort to avoid accidentally taking rare species, and anyone taking fish home is doing so legally. If you can't identify a fish in the field and if it could possibly be a protected or rare species, please take a photo in the field (in a small photo tank or in the net), then release the fish and send us your pics. We will gladly offer our ID opinions on field-photographed fish."
I know it takes some effort, but to me that's a big part of NANFA's education mission.
"Sorry (insert name), but we can't offer ID help on fish in a home aquarium until you tell us: 1) where it was collected; 2) what federal or state protected or rare species might occur in that area, and 3) are you sure the fish you have posted is not a protected or rare species. Conservation and compliance with federal and state wildlife laws are core values of NANFA. We just want to make sure that fish collectors using the NANFA forum are making a reasonable effort to avoid accidentally taking rare species, and anyone taking fish home is doing so legally. If you can't identify a fish in the field and if it could possibly be a protected or rare species, please take a photo in the field (in a small photo tank or in the net), then release the fish and send us your pics. We will gladly offer our ID opinions on field-photographed fish."
I know it takes some effort, but to me that's a big part of NANFA's education mission.
#13
Guest_Skipjack_*
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Posted 29 June 2012 - 10:31 PM
Gerald, I like your idea. If a member can beat a mod to the punch with your words, it may be somewhat workable, in some cases. But if a mod sees it, it is his/her obligation to follow the rules that are stated in the ID subforum. If you can quickly drag some additional info out of them that indicates that they are in the clear, that is great.
Remember these forum rules were well thought out to protect fishes, and NANFA. Some rules were trial and error, but this is kind of the cardinal rule that keeps our reputation sound. Matt
Remember these forum rules were well thought out to protect fishes, and NANFA. Some rules were trial and error, but this is kind of the cardinal rule that keeps our reputation sound. Matt
#14
Michael Wolfe
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- Board of Directors
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- North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage
Posted 30 June 2012 - 07:55 AM
Agree Matt and thanks for explaining.
Also, talking about reaching out to the individual. On something like this I usually send a PM to the member and remind him of the rule and what is going on so that they know why we closed the post. What I left on the forum may have been a little abrupt, but I did also 'talk' to the individual and got a very understanding response from him.
Also, talking about reaching out to the individual. On something like this I usually send a PM to the member and remind him of the rule and what is going on so that they know why we closed the post. What I left on the forum may have been a little abrupt, but I did also 'talk' to the individual and got a very understanding response from him.
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin
#15
Guest_Usil_*
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Posted 30 June 2012 - 09:54 PM
Interesting discusion. Actually, I had assummed #3 from Gerald which is why I was confused with the responce. State laws seem extream because who would ever think that a few native fish caught by a relative few for aquarium study would impact any wild population of fish. And yet we are guided by laws and we must follow them.
Edited by Usil, 30 June 2012 - 10:06 PM.
#16
Guest_gzeiger_*
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Posted 01 July 2012 - 12:24 AM
You know, the posts that are perceived as harsh are generated directly because of people reading the forum rules. Therefore, if you just added Gerald's criteria to the posted rule, over time it would get sorted out. People would go to quote the rule and there would be the criteria.
#17
Guest_gerald_*
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Posted 01 July 2012 - 11:06 AM
Glad to hear that Michael. You're a warm fuzzy guy by nature and not usually prone to quick criticism of newbies (although probably you're warm and sticky today).
On something like this I usually send a PM to the member and remind him of the rule and what is going on so that they know why we closed the post. What I left on the forum may have been a little abrupt, but I did also 'talk' to the individual and got a very understanding response from him.
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