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collect, isolate, and culture live foods.


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#1 Guest_Auban_*

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 12:39 PM

so, has anyone ever wondered where their live food cultures come from? those grindal worms didnt just pop up in a culture container somewhere. neither did those daphnia that you feed your baby fish.

even brine shrimp were, at one point, just another uncultivated oddity. so how does one start a new culture of live somethings that the pet trade may have never even heard of before?

as it turns out, it isnt that complicated. in fact, if you are just looking for something that might make a good live food someday without setting a specific requirement on what you might need or use, it doesnt even require any special work at all.

there are two ways of creating a new live food culture. one is finding a particular species wee beastie that you want to use for live food and learning how to grow it. for the this type pioneering work, you would need to learn as much as you can about the species in question and try to recreat ideal conditions for it to reproduce in. this is most people culture live foods, they aquire a culture that they want after or immediately before they do the research on how to keep it. keeping the culture alive is just a matter of giving it the right environment.

the second method is my personal favorite. it involves collecting several different species, giving them a specific environment, and seeing which species prefers that environment. this allows you to create a culture that is curtailed to the growing conditions that you are prepared to give them. the only down side is that you dont know if you are going to get something you will want. you may end up culturing millions of a small waterbug that would be great for adult fish, but would eat your 10 day old betta fry you are trying to feed. for this reason, you should only create such a culture purely for the sake of creating a genuinely new culture. my experience has been that you will eventually find a use/need for whatever you manage to end up with.

years ago, i used to go looking for specific bugs, collecting individuals from the wild and then learning as much as i could about culturing them. sometimes i was succeed, more often than not i would fail. after a while, i got tired of going back to the swamps/ponds/roadside ditches to collect more and more, so i just filled a couple five gallon buckets with water and mud from the bottom and poured them in a ten gallon tank. after i let it settle, i planned on using it as a little refuge to pull specimens from that i could work with.

it didnt take long for the initial "wild stock" to change. at first, i had worms, ostracods, copepods, and one or two daphnia. three weeks later, there were no more woms or daphnia, but the ostracods and copepods had trippled in numbers. i started isolating cultures of both, creating new tanks to put them in. the copepods would not survive a fast change in water quality but the ostracods did fine. eventually i learned how to culture both of them. after several trials and error, i learned that the ostracods could eat detritous, but the larvae would starve if the water column was too clean. the adults did not need suspended food matter food matter, but seemed to benefit if i gave it to them. all of the cultures flourished if i fed them some detritous and something that would stay in the water column.

i was 12 when i started the origional tank of pond water and mud. i was trying to learn how to culture those tiny little worms i would often find in the mud, but instead i ended up learning how to culture something that proved just as usefull to me that i hadnt even considered before. the things i learned from that first tank have allowed me to culture other species of ostracods in large enough numbers to easily use them as live foods. i also learned a lot about culturing copepods, but i never found a need for them since i was able to use ostracod eggs to produce live nauplii on demand that could fill the same role copepods would.

anytime we take somthing from outside, we are changing its environment. even if you were to leave the tank outside, you would still change the temp, circulation, ecology, etc of its occupants. this is one of the reasons i love this method so much. you never know what you are going to end up with, but you will know that whatever takes off can live and reproduce in the environment that you just gave it. that means a lof of the guess work is takien out of the equation. just keep doing what you are doing and you will at worst have enough specimens to attemt cultures on, and at best, have something that flourishes right at the get go.

in order for something to be usefull as live food, you have be able to produce it in large enough quantities to reqularly feed them off. so if you create a tank of water pulled from a wild source, and a month later you have a rediculous number of some crazy little bug, you already know that it can meet the reproduction requirements of live food.

my latest culture came from using this method. i wanted to get a culture of something that could be used as live food, but i wanted to be able to culture it in containers i left outside in the sun. so about a month and a half ago i was on my way to my inlaws house and i saw a small dry creek bed along thier half mile long drive way. about twice a year the creek flows for a couple weeks, so i figured it would be a perfect place to go try and collect my newest live food culture. after walking for about half a mile down the creekbed, i found a tiny puddle of water. i scooped up a bunch of sand and dead leaves, water, and clay and put them in an empty water bottle. when i looked at it, i saw thousands of tiny mosquito larvae, tiny scuds, and large copepods. after leaving it in a shallow cooler full of rainwater outside for a month, i checked on it and found a small daphnid, many small green ostracods, and thousands of small worms, about the size of grindal worms. when i started bringing in small cultures of the outside culture to gow the worms, the daphnids exploded. they went from barely beeing visible at all to producing a cloud that you cant see through(at least when they are feeding up near the light) in less than a week.

i origionally intended to culture the ostracods or the small scuds, and then the worms, but found something that will likely work great for feeding fry.

like i said, you never really know what you will get untill you try it.

Edited by Auban, 21 July 2012 - 12:42 PM.


#2 Guest_alejandro_*

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 12:27 AM

I have really been enjoying these last few threads of yours on live foods. Thanks a lot for sharing your experiences and methods.

-Alejandro

#3 Guest_Auban_*

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 01:57 PM

I have really been enjoying these last few threads of yours on live foods. Thanks a lot for sharing your experiences and methods.

-Alejandro


your very welcome :) im just glad to have a place to discuss live foods, especially since nobody seems to do it the way i do.

#4 Guest_Auban_*

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 02:02 PM

here is a video of the small worms i was trying to propogate when i brought the small culture inside. they have exploded in numbers as well, and when i turned the lights off, they started congregating at the top corners of the tank. i have seen them do this over the last several days, but not in this large a quantitiy yet. i stirred the water up to see if there were still more in the detritous, and there are. it seems they like the same conditions that the daphnids do. probably some kind of dero worm. whatever they are, i think i have enough now to start a seperate culture of them. ill leave the daphnids with them since they seem to be doing well in their presence.
http://s1242.photobu...nt=IMG_0738.mp4

#5 Guest_Auban_*

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 03:29 PM

i just collected about a teaspoon of the worms from the outside culture and put them in a small container to feed them. i gave them powdered chlorella algae and a few minutes later i could already see green in their bellies. sweetness.

#6 Guest_Auban_*

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 06:09 PM

well, after doing some digging, it turns out that i have a culture of daphnia and microflex/dero worms. it seems this is a symbiotic culture that a lot of aquarists are having a lot of success with, and therefore is getting to be highly sought out. its funny that i managed to get the same culture by simply scooping up some mud and water and putting it in a tub in the sun.

#7 Guest_gunner48_*

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 06:41 PM

Great thread topic
I raised a small culture of dero worms but never got your results and never got them beyond a curiousity. I guess the best question is what did the fish think of them?

#8 Guest_Auban_*

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 07:08 PM

the fish went nuts over them. they didnt last long. the only thing i dont like about them is that they cluster up into tiny balls pretty quickly, which get ignored by larger fish, but the fry were still picking at the balls, so i guess all is well. i managed to harvest a couple more teaspoons from the outdoor culture. i knew they were in there, but i had no idea they had reporoduced to such numbers untill i poured the culture into another container. all the worms swam to the top and collected into tiny little balls along the edges. i just sucked them up with airline tubing and squirted them in a cup. these guys are defenitely going to california with me.

#9 Guest_Auban_*

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 07:00 PM

yesterday i moved my dero and daphnid (pretty sure they are moinas by this point) into a ten gallon daphnia tank. there seems to be twice as many moinas and as there were yesterday, so the moinas like the green water. it seems they have a population boom every two to three days. i start with one and three days later i have twenty, three days after that there are hundreds, etc etc. there is currently no aeration on the tank. one thing i have noticed is that the moinas stay in the bottom few inches of the tank while the daphnias stay more toward the upper few inches of the tank. im not sure what this is caused by, but im assuming the moinas prefer to stay near the dero worms where they eat bacteria produced from the worms and the detritous, while the daphnia prefer the higher dissolved oxygen and algae found higher in the water column. while the moinas were in the tank by themselves,(which was a shorter tank) they stayed near the top unless they had cleared the water, in which case the only food would have been bacteria.

i have also noticed a bloom of daphnia larvae as well. i dont think it has anything to do with the moina/dero addition, but it is starting to clear up the green water.
videos and/or pics to come once the water is clear enough.

#10 Guest_Auban_*

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 08:59 PM

here is a video of the cultue, as promised. not the greatest, but you can see how i raise them and the density of the culture. cant really see the dero worms though.
http://s1242.photobu...0724_211703.mp4

#11 Guest_Auban_*

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 07:05 PM

the daphnia have trippled in numbers again. it never fails to surprise me how fast they can reproduce. anyway, they reduce visibility and require feedings now. i also have to harvest from them every day now. the dero worms have doubled in numbers.

#12 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 06:46 AM

I've got a question for you. I'm trying to culture marine rotifers and this $10 bottle of algae I bought to feed them seems to only last a week or two. I've got a pound of baker's yeast in my freezer sitting there from my other food cultures. I dropped some in the rotifer culture and they seem to be eating it (or at least the marine polyps are). Is yeast a viable alternative to phytoplankton for raising rotifers? Or am I going to encounter some sort of problem soon?

#13 Guest_Auban_*

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 10:08 PM

yeast is fine for raising rotifers. if you are feeding them to something, you should use your algae to gut load them first before you feed them off, since yeast is really low on HUFA. hatcheries often keep or buy rotifers raised on yeast and then feed them nannochloropsis algae for a couple days before feeding them to larval fish. doind so reduces the cost of raising them and still allows them to have the nutritional content needed for the fish. the only downside is that water is easier to foul with yeast and anything non-living than it is with live algae.

rotifers can eat almost anything if it is small enough. the biggest factor in what to feed your rotifers is the nutritional requirement of the animal your feeding them to.

Edited by Auban, 02 August 2012 - 10:11 PM.


#14 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 11:09 PM

yeast is fine for raising rotifers. if you are feeding them to something, you should use your algae to gut load them first before you feed them off, since yeast is really low on HUFA. hatcheries often keep or buy rotifers raised on yeast and then feed them nannochloropsis algae for a couple days before feeding them to larval fish. doind so reduces the cost of raising them and still allows them to have the nutritional content needed for the fish. the only downside is that water is easier to foul with yeast and anything non-living than it is with live algae.

rotifers can eat almost anything if it is small enough. the biggest factor in what to feed your rotifers is the nutritional requirement of the animal your feeding them to.

Okay, cool. Thank you.

Today I was eating wakame (seaweed) for lunch and it occurred to me that I might be able to feed it to my fish. It's like lettuce, but more ocean-y. Have you ever used blender-ed seaweed to feed live food cultures? It's very inexpensive at my local asian grocery store.

#15 Guest_Auban_*

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 10:04 AM

weekly plant clippings from my display tank
Posted Image

slurry gets strained through the coffee filter, solids get fed to earthworms and the green liquid gets fed to ostracods and daphnia/dero worms.
Posted Image

#16 Guest_Auban_*

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 07:55 PM

i pretty much do what you are talking about. i encourage you to experiment with any such idea. its how i have learned how to bend the rules over the years :)

#17 Guest_Auban_*

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 09:28 AM

update on my daphnia and dero worms:

a few days ago i decided to add some heat and see how the worms do. then i went into the field for an over night guard duty, and directed my wife to feed them. the amount i directed her to feed was too much. when i came back, there had been a large die off. daphnia littered the bottom, with only a hand full left alive. the worms seemed to become much more active though, and it seemed they were a little larger than i had seen them before.

anyway, i thought the daphnia culture would crash because of poor water quality, but the next day the water was nearly clear again. i looked closely this morning and found that every surface in the tank was completely covered in vorticella. it seems they are the ones that cleared the water. the daphnia are doing better as well, i see lots and lots of little babies swimming around.

i not sure if i should do anything about the vorticella. when they are anchored, they compete with the daphnia for food, but when they are free swimming, they become food. watching the dero worms crawling across the glass, it is apparent that the vorticella is serving as food for the worms. it seems that this culture is starting to self regulate. when the tank is overfed, the vorticella take over and clear the water, and then the dero worms eat the vorticella. when the dero worms start munching on them, they start detatching from the tank walls and swim through the water column, where the daphnia can pick them up. at the bottom of the tank, a healthy colony of non-seasonal ostracods are constantly sifting through the mulm for anything edible that falls from the water column.

so, the vorticella are starting to decline as the dero worms and the daphnia increase, and the vorticella will be there to quickly clear a tank if i overfeed them again.
im really starting to love the ecology of this tank.

Edited by Auban, 04 August 2012 - 09:35 AM.


#18 Guest_Auban_*

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 08:36 PM

update: since the move, my dero worms have all mysteriously vanished. im not really sure why, the population was booming and then suddenly vanished without a trace. the daphnia, on the other hand, made the move just fine. it seems those things do better the less i mess with them.

in other news, i recently started trading aquarium plants for dirt samples from vernal pools on some farmers lands. i hydrated the first sample(from a farmer in tennessee) about three days ago in a 20 gallon breeder tank. i am already seeing hundreds of a very slow moving daphnid. im not sure of what kind it is yet, but it is exciting to know that my plant for dirt plan is working as intended.

a lot of hobbiests have expressed interest in my plants, offering to buy them, but im not interested in money at the moment. by working out these kinds of trades, i can gain access to native cultures of critters that i would never have been able to reach, and i can make some hobbiests happy in the process.

i hope to eventually have a representation from every state. im sure this collection will never be entirely complete, but its something i can do now, instead of waiting untill im out of the army to start studying vernal pool life.

the way i see it, in ten years i may be going to college or i may not, but im still going to be ten years older.
i might as well do something interesting in the mean time.

Edited by Auban, 25 September 2012 - 08:36 PM.


#19 Guest_Auban_*

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 06:49 AM

well, i have identified two of the daphnids so far.

from one of the new cultures i got from dirt a hobbiest sent me, i found daphnia ambigua.

from my own cultures, namely the large tub, i have managed to identify moina macrocopa. they seem to have taken over and wiped out the tiny ceriodaphnias that i had. im not sure where they came from, but they are mostly covered in vorticella, which i didnt see on the ceriodaphnia(also could have caused them to vanish...). what is interesting is that i dont see vorticella on a daphnid that i have yet to identify. its either D. catawba or D. schodleri, but im waiting on some cover slips to arrive so that i can get a better look at the dorsal area of the carapace. either way, i find it interesting that the vorticella seems to prefer one cladoceran over the other. maybe because the moina is the stronger swimmer? or possibly because the moina has a habbit of dropping to the substrate, where the vorticella are likely to be, in search of food whenever i forget to feed them. either way, i found the bottom of my culture tub littered with moinas. many of them were still alive, but could no longer swim. i think im going to have to find a way to adress that issue. i should be able to get ephippia from them, so maybe i can start a pure culture without vorticella if i can find a way to sanitize the ephippia.


as of yet, i still have not managed to get an ID on any of the ostracods i have. i have a decent key, but i am probably going to have to get some fine needles and some glycerine to dissect them. where the cladocerans seem pretty easy, the ostracods tend to hide all of their identifying features.

Edited by Auban, 06 October 2012 - 06:51 AM.


#20 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 12:26 PM

weekly plant clippings from my display tank
Posted Image

slurry gets strained through the coffee filter, solids get fed to earthworms and the green liquid gets fed to ostracods and daphnia/dero worms.
Posted Image


I finally just now followed this advice with the duckweed that I'm currently trying to eradicate from my fish tanks and replace with ricciocarpus natans. It was surprisingly satisfying to put it in the blender and press 'pulse'. The slurry smelled like a lawnmower cutting grass.

I'm going to try it now with the wakame seaweed I buy from the asian grocery store to add to soup. It's full of omega-3 fatty acids. The yeast is definitely working to grow a large healthy population of copepods ( youtube.com/watch?v=k9bOYmBI-mo) but I also have a lot of purple slime algae that I think likes to eat yeast, too. Maybe using less yeast and more plant-based slurry will result in less slime algae, I dunno. My other motive is I'm trying to get these mandarin dragonettes to breed, and maybe they need omega-3 rich copepods in their diet to do it. I dunno. Might as well try it; wakame seaweed is dirt cheap.

Thank you for the advice; it never would have occurred to me to put plants in the blender without you saying something first :)

Edit:
woooooaaaah. Slurried seaweed still acts like seaweed. That's so weird. When I poured it in the tank, the stream of poured seaweed clumped together like it was a leaf. Very strange.

Edited by EricaWieser, 22 December 2012 - 12:44 PM.





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