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#1 Guest_cyclingfishgeek_*

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 02:09 AM

This is a really cool place and I have a feeling that I will learn a lot!

First off, I am only 16, but I have kept fish since I was in kindergarden... so since I was 5. So I have kept aquariums for 2/3's of my life. Right now I have 7 tanks, 2 20's, 2 29's, 10, 55 and a 75 gallon. All of which are tropicals (Angelfish, tetras and plecos).
I plan on moving some fish around and selling some to open up some space for some natives.

Upon doing tons of research these three fish look the most appealing to me,

Bluefin Killifish - Lucania Goodei
Least Darter - Etheostoma Microperca
Rainbow Darter - Etheostoma Caeruleum

What do you guys think of these fish for a first time native keeper? I plan on keeping them all in their own species tanks.

Edited by cyclingfishgeek, 17 August 2012 - 02:10 AM.


#2 Michael Wolfe

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 07:05 AM

Welcome cyclingfishgeek (is that one very strange hobby or three?). First of all I would commend you on doing research before making any decisions about fish to keep. Second, yes, those are all pretty good fish to keep. They are not hard to feed and are in general pretty hardy (although I have never personally had any luck with Bluefins, everyone else on here has).
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#3 mattknepley

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 07:12 AM

Welcome to NANFA, Cyclingfishgeek. I was much like you describe yourself when I was 16. I joined NANFA around that time, and got a lot out of the experience. Life took me other directions than fishy ones for many years, but now I'm getting back into the hobby and will be reupping in NANFA. Now with message boards, as well as American Currents, et al the knowledge to be gained here is nothing short of amazing.

I would think Bluefin Killies would be a good place to start. Even though I left the hobby for all intents and purposes, I still kept a small tank on and off. One day at my lfs I found a couple bluefins hiding in their plant display. The store gave 'em to me for next to nothing, and they thrived in my tropical tank, overheated though they were. Eventually they took to flake food, but for a little while frozen bloodworms were about all they'd take. At first they hid a lot, but they were in a pretty peaceful community tank and spent a bit of time in the open once adjusted.

I don't know about Least of Rainbow Darters, but I have had a Swamp Darter for over five years now. Which is interesting, because it waaay exceeds their expected lifespan in the wild. I got him the same way I got the Bluefins. He isn't colorful, but he's got personality and moxie to spare. He loves frozen bloodworms and brine shrimp, but has also adjusted to flake just fine. In fact, he's a pretty aggressive feeder!

Have fun with your tanks and riding!
Matt Knepley
"No thanks, a third of a gopher would merely arouse my appetite..."

#4 Guest_cyclingfishgeek_*

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 11:52 AM

Welcome cyclingfishgeek (is that one very strange hobby or three?). First of all I would commend you on doing research before making any decisions about fish to keep. Second, yes, those are all pretty good fish to keep. They are not hard to feed and are in general pretty hardy (although I have never personally had any luck with Bluefins, everyone else on here has).


Haha, three!


Welcome to NANFA, Cyclingfishgeek. I was much like you describe yourself when I was 16. I joined NANFA around that time, and got a lot out of the experience. Life took me other directions than fishy ones for many years, but now I'm getting back into the hobby and will be reupping in NANFA. Now with message boards, as well as American Currents, et al the knowledge to be gained here is nothing short of amazing.

I would think Bluefin Killies would be a good place to start. Even though I left the hobby for all intents and purposes, I still kept a small tank on and off. One day at my lfs I found a couple bluefins hiding in their plant display. The store gave 'em to me for next to nothing, and they thrived in my tropical tank, overheated though they were. Eventually they took to flake food, but for a little while frozen bloodworms were about all they'd take. At first they hid a lot, but they were in a pretty peaceful community tank and spent a bit of time in the open once adjusted.

I don't know about Least of Rainbow Darters, but I have had a Swamp Darter for over five years now. Which is interesting, because it waaay exceeds their expected lifespan in the wild. I got him the same way I got the Bluefins. He isn't colorful, but he's got personality and moxie to spare. He loves frozen bloodworms and brine shrimp, but has also adjusted to flake just fine. In fact, he's a pretty aggressive feeder!

Have fun with your tanks and riding!


Thanks! I think that I will go and place my order in with Zimmermans.

#5 Guest_cyclingfishgeek_*

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 01:24 PM

Things just changed and I have an empty 75 gallon tank just waiting to get stocked with Natives.

I would like to keep the Rainbow Darters (Etheostoma Caeruleum) in here as the bottom fish, having the rest of the tank stocked around them.

What about Dollar Sunfish? Would I be able to grow out the Etheostoma Caeruleum until they are adult size and then add the Dollar Sunfish and not have to worry about the Darters getting eaten? Yea or Nay?

Edited by cyclingfishgeek, 18 August 2012 - 01:25 PM.


#6 Guest_Orangespotted_*

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 07:41 PM

"I have an empty 75 gallon tank just waiting to get stocked with Natives."
That's great! I sure wish I could convince my own parents to allow me to keep another tank, let alone one that is 75 gallons. It's nice to see that you would like to use it for multiple small species rather than just one Bluegill or whatnot also. Though the larger guys do turn into aquatic puppy dogs, a diverse setup is so much more interesting in my own opinion.

"What about Dollar Sunfish? Would I be able to grow out the Etheostoma Caeruleum until they are adult size and then add the Dollar Sunfish and not have to worry about the Darters getting eaten? Yea or Nay?"
Dollar Sunfish stay small enough that they probably would not consume your darters, but I still would fear for the darters' lives - Dollars can get nasty mean, especially as they pair off. If you would still like a sunfish, several other sunfishes that would coexist well with adult Rainbow Darters include the Blackbanded (Enneacanthus chaetodon), Bluespotted (Enneacanthus gloriosus), and Orangespotted (Lepomis humilis). Those species all stay short (<4"), are colorful, and don't act as antagonistic.

Here are some other species I think could work in your aquarium, by family:

Cyprinids: Red Shiner (Cyprinella lutrensis), Rainbow Shiner (Notropis chrosomus, and others in subgenus Hydrophlox), Southern Redbelly Dace (Chrosomus erythrogaster) or Mountain Redbelly Dace (Chrosomus oreas), Blacknose Dace (Rhinichthys atratulus), Redfin Shiner (Lythrurus umbratilis). These species I have all seen offered for sale/have a widespread distribution, accept most flake foods readily, and have nice colors when in good condition. What I really like about the minnows is that in an aquarium your size, you can have a decent sized school of these hyperactive guys. Make sure you have a lid on your aquarium, or they may bail on you.

Catfishes: All madtoms will fill the bill, notably the Tadpole Madtom (Noturus gyrinus) which is widespread and common. With any madtom, keep an eye on your smallest residents since they are still predators and if they can fit their mouth around a fish then they will eat it.

Darters: I know you already plan to have Rainbows, but be sure to check out the rest of the Etheostoma genus of darters. The majority of them are colorful and they are wonderfully diverse. Banded Darters (Etheostoma zonale) hold their color well and are good for a splash of green. I also don't see why you couldn't keep Least Darters (Etheostoma microperca) with your Rainbows as long as you make sure that they get their share of food.

Suckers: Most suckers get too big or are threatened, but a Northern Hog Sucker (Hypentelium nigricans) could work if you want a species in there to represent this group.

Killifishes and Livebearers: A group of Pygmy Livebearers (Heterandria formosa) are reliable breeders and could work if nothing is large enough to eat them. Sailfin Mollies (Poecilia latipinna) are nice and you might be able to find them at a good aquarium store; same goes for American Flagfish (Jordanella floridae) and Golden Topminnows (Fundulus chryosotus).

This is not a complete list by far, but they are the ones that immediately come to mind for me. Lastly, a question: are you planning on adding plants to the aquarium? They really make the tank look nice and function well at removing nutrient wastes from the water.

Best of luck!

#7 Guest_cyclingfishgeek_*

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 11:49 AM

Where can I order these fish from? Right now all I know of, as far as websites, is Zimmermans (Which carry the Rainbow Darters, Least Darters, Western Dollar Sunfish and the Killifish). How many Sunfish could I keep in this tank?

I do plan on adding plants. I plan on having Water lettuce and Duckweed. Elodea and if I can get it to grow some Vallisneria on the far right hand side of the tank - opposite the the output for the canister and powerhead.

#8 Guest_Orangespotted_*

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 01:38 PM

Zimmerman also carries the Flagfish and Scarlet Shiners (Lythrurus fasciolaris) which are very similar to Redfin Shiners. I've read and seen that he typically has more species offered later in the year, so if you are patient you may see more of what you want. Other ways to purchase native fishes include the other vendors listed in this forum; there is also a site called Sachs Systems Aquaculture (google it) that sells a great variety of natives. If these vendors do not list a particular species you were looking for, you could become an official NANFA member and by doing so you'd have access to the "Trading Dock" subforum where you may find a desired species up for trade. Finally, I think that Washington has a number of unique native species that you may wish to learn about, and perhaps even add to your aquarium (I'll look some up later).

I can't answer your sunfish question fully, perhaps someone else here can? It depends on the number of other species you want to keep, and how many different kinds of sunfishes you want, and what genders they are. If I were to have my own planted 75, and I wanted all three species of the sunfishes that I mentioned earlier, I would personally add five of each Orangespotteds, Bluespotteds, and Blackbandeds, with male/female ratio being about 2:3. All males or all females would work even better.

Good to hear about the plants. Be careful about the duckweed, once you add it and it grows, you may never be able to get rid of it. It could also outcompete and shade out all your other plants. Water lettuce and Elodea sound great, and American Vallisneria is a native species to boot. The more plants, the better! What is your plan for substrate?

Please keep us updated!

#9 Guest_cyclingfishgeek_*

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 12:15 AM

I emailed Zimmermans and he said that I could keep 8 of the Dollar Sunfish and 8 of the Rainbow Darters. So I think that when I get the cash I will start there. I don't really have any other ambitions with this tank as far as species. Keeping it simple for starters. I do have the 20 gallon that will be getting some type of Killifish and then the Least Darters... and then possibly another 20 gallon for something.

I would absolutely try collecting fish here, but I believe that it is illegal. Unfortunatelly.

Substrate will be a Sand base with varying sizes of river rocks, and some pieces of driftwood. I say try the Vallisneria becaue the Sand will have no nutrients in it what so ever. Ideas on substrates? I want it to be a light tan color.

Edited by cyclingfishgeek, 20 August 2012 - 12:16 AM.


#10 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 07:21 AM

I say try the Vallisneria becaue the Sand will have no nutrients in it what so ever. Ideas on substrates? I want it to be a light tan color.

Pure clay kitty litter with no fragrances or clumping chemicals added. For example Special Kitty brand cat litter, the one with no fragrance added. http://www.walmart.c...indingMethod=rr

Here's a tank with kitty litter substrate that is growing vallisneria in it: http://www.plantedta...ead.php?t=55280
Scroll down past the initial advertisements at the top of the webpage to see the photos.

Here are some videos of my kitty litter tanks.
  • Cleveland, Ohio kitty litter. Aquarium water 16-20 DH: www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYqphSrwuAs
  • Winston-Salem, North Carolina kitty litter. Aquarium water 0 DH: www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3F4vIXMHg4 and www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTA7y9Tns5M
It is regionally variable so what color yours is depends on where you live. In Cleveland the kitty litter was gray and in Winston-Salem it is more beige. The water parameters generated from contact with the kitty litter were extremely different in the two places (16-20 versus 0 degrees of hardness). Because it's only $4 per bag, it's cheap enough for you to be able to test out how your region's kitty litter would change your aquarium's water parameters without risking too much money. Simply put some of the kitty litter in a container with some of your tap water, let it sit in there for a day, and then measure the hardness, pH, etc. See what color it is. It's possible it could drive the DH way up or it could do absolutely nothing to it. There's no way to know without getting a bag of your local kitty litter and testing.

Edited by EricaWieser, 20 August 2012 - 07:41 AM.


#11 Guest_cyclingfishgeek_*

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 12:20 PM

I don't have a DH/KH test kit yet. Would I use just straight Kitty Litter or would I do the Litter and then cap it in sand? Or mix the two together?

#12 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 06:02 PM

I don't have a DH/KH test kit yet.

Most pet stores will test your water for free if you ask them in advance and then, upon receiving their approval, bring in a sample of your water.

Would I use just straight Kitty Litter or would I do the Litter and then cap it in sand? Or mix the two together?

I have never capped my kitty litter with anything else. I never saw the need; I was fine with its coloration and the kitty litter sinks on its own. Capping would be purely aesthetic, to change the color. Crayola makes many colors of sand that are aquarium safe, for example http://www.walmart.c...d-Blue/16913832 if you want some crazy neon and pastel colors or something.

My steps for installing kitty litter in an aquarium are as follows:
1. Do not bother to rinse the kitty litter. Just pour it in. Make sure it's pure clay, no little chemical lumps.
2. Put a bowl down and pour the water into the tank by pouring it on the bowl, not directly onto the substrate. Go slowly and avoid stirring up dust.
3. After there's about an inch or less of water, push down the kitty litter. Compress it. Wait an hour or so for it to settle, then continue filling.
4. Put a sponge in the filter. (For example the chemical free synthetic sea sponge sold at Walmart for $2 although any sponge would work. My friend Tammy used an old destroyed memory foam pillow and said it worked really well. The important thing is that the sponge should have very, very small pores.) Wring out the sponge every few hours. It should wring out very very dark water. This sponge will remove the dust from the water.
5. The next day the tank should be much clearer. Tank should be completely clear again by a day or two. You can immediately clear the tank by emptying and filling a few times with a sink-faucet-hose connection, $5 online for a sink-to-garden-hose connection. If you're sick of dusty water, use one of those and it'll be clear again within a few empties and refills. If you like to conserve water, then just wring out the sponge every few hours and the water will be clear in a day or two.

Edited by EricaWieser, 20 August 2012 - 06:17 PM.


#13 Guest_Orangespotted_*

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 08:27 PM

Is there any particular reason for wanting the substrate color to be light tan? Lighter substrates tend to bleach out the colors of the fishes. You can cap the Kitty Litter with gravel and sand if you wish to keep it in place; to my understanding it is stirred up and broken down into dust by some gravel vacuum cleaners. Make very sure to get the "Special Kitty" unscented kitty litter Erica mentioned if you choose to go with that method, all other brands and varieties may be toxic!

Best of luck!

#14 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 09:31 PM

You can cap the Kitty Litter with gravel and sand if you wish to keep it in place; to my understanding it is stirred up and broken down into dust by some gravel vacuum cleaners.

No capping is necessary. If you looked at some closeups of the substrate you'd see it doesn't get broken down into dust. Rather, that gets swept away and caught in your filter, and what's left are pebbles of clay. The same is true if you gravel vacuum; the siphon sucks the dust out and leaves the larger pellets behind.
http://gallery.nanfa...resize.jpg.html
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http://gallery.nanfa...w home.jpg.html
http://gallery.nanfa...nlight.jpg.html

Edited by EricaWieser, 20 August 2012 - 09:35 PM.


#15 Guest_cyclingfishgeek_*

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 09:56 PM

I sold some of the Longfinned Albino Bristlenose Pleco's that I breed and was able to get a KH or GH test kit from the store I sell to. So I think that I am good to go.

If the "Special Kitty" brand cat littler looks good then I will go with that. If not I might mix it up with the sand. The sand that I have is tan which is my I have talked about tan colored substrate. The back of the tank is also black because I have insulated all of my tanks with styrofoam to help hold in the heat when it was tropicalfish.

I got the 20 gallon to house the Bluefin Killifish and the Least Darters so now it is cycling and I will see when I can add them to this tank. (dependent on when I can get the money.) I will post a video when I get it edited and put together. Hopefully sometime tonight.

I plan on becoming a full member soon.

Thanks guys for the help! This is really cool.

Edited by cyclingfishgeek, 20 August 2012 - 09:58 PM.


#16 Guest_cyclingfishgeek_*

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 01:35 PM

I tested the KH of my planted 55 gallon. It was 4.
I also tested the GH of the 55 gallon and it was 12... So I need to decrease the amount of Seachem Equelibrium added.

Anyways, back on topic. Here is the rough scape of the new 20 gallon that will get the Bluefin Killifish and the Least Darters.



#17 Guest_cyclingfishgeek_*

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 06:43 PM

Looks like I really will have to go to Walmart. Neither Safeway, Petco or Mudbay had the "Special Kitty" brand cat litter.

#18 Michael Wolfe

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 08:01 PM

you do not have to go to Walmart...ever!

And you do not have to use kitty litter when you have dirt in your backyard. I could be quiet and let Erica convert youto kitty itter, but I have to speak up when you are talking about shipping at the evil Chinese empire. Please dont do it. Use the dirt form your backyard and cap it off with the tan sand that you wanted. You will get a tank that is nearly instantly cycled and will support plant growth and many other positives. Search some of our past "discussions" on the topic here in the forum.
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

#19 Guest_cyclingfishgeek_*

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 11:29 PM

you do not have to go to Walmart...ever!

And you do not have to use kitty litter when you have dirt in your backyard. I could be quiet and let Erica convert youto kitty itter, but I have to speak up when you are talking about shipping at the evil Chinese empire. Please dont do it. Use the dirt form your backyard and cap it off with the tan sand that you wanted. You will get a tank that is nearly instantly cycled and will support plant growth and many other positives. Search some of our past "discussions" on the topic here in the forum.

This tank was previously dirted. But do to some unfortunate events, like a huge dirt cloud that wouldn't stop bubbling up every 5 days, I have decided that the one 20 gallon dirt tank that I do own is all that I need. I still have QFC and FredMeyer to look for this "Special Kitty" brand cat litter. There is still hope!!!

#20 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 12:03 AM

you do not have to go to Walmart...ever!

If you can find a bag of pure baked ground clay it doesn't matter where you get it. Special Kitty is a Walmart store brand, yes, but any store's clay would work. It just has to be pure clay, no fragrance added.

This tank was previously dirted. But do to some unfortunate events, like a huge dirt cloud that wouldn't stop bubbling up every 5 days, I have decided that the one 20 gallon dirt tank that I do own is all that I need.

Yeah I know how you feel. I once got a bag of soil from a store that did the same thing and was a complete nightmare. Avoid Miracle Gro Organic Choice Potting Mix (and anything with composted bark as an ingredient; it floats).

Clay is an alternative to soil, synthetic fertilizers like Root Tabs™, and expensive specialty planting substrates like Fluorite™. It's only one of many methods that all work well at growing aquatic plants. Soil, fertilized sand, kitty litter, specialty plant substrates, all of them grow plants well. There are many options and at no point are you stuck with something you don't like. *nods* If you don't like the kitty litter, throw it out. You're only out $4 if that's the case. It's a pretty monetarily safe adventure.

Edited by EricaWieser, 23 August 2012 - 12:11 AM.




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