Redline
My only Roanoke Darter
Please help me with this. I would like to treat my entire tank. If I lose fish in the process...so be it. I can always restock, but I don't want to keep this cycle going.
Major fish deaths..please help
Started by
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, Oct 06 2012 03:37 PM
20 replies to this topic
#1
Guest_jblaylock_*
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Posted 06 October 2012 - 03:37 PM
My tank had been very stable. I hadn't lost any fish, other than a few from old age in months. When I added the fish from the 2012 Convention, it went downhill...FAST! I have been losing fish at a rate of 2-5 a week. Oddly, it is the established fish that are dying, not the new ones. All have had similar symptoms as you can see in the photos. The discoloration starts on the dorsal fin and moves down the back. I have one Spotfin Shiner that the white is closer to it's tailfin, but still on the upper part. I'm now also losing Darters, usually I only get sick shiners/minnow. I need help. Somebody please help with the diagnosis, and recommend some medications. Please do not tell me to check my water parameters, I just need to know what disease this is, and what's best to treat it.
Redline
My only Roanoke Darter
Please help me with this. I would like to treat my entire tank. If I lose fish in the process...so be it. I can always restock, but I don't want to keep this cycle going.
Redline
My only Roanoke Darter
Please help me with this. I would like to treat my entire tank. If I lose fish in the process...so be it. I can always restock, but I don't want to keep this cycle going.
#2
Guest_Skipjack_*
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#3
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Posted 06 October 2012 - 08:23 PM
It might not be columnaris if it's not fuzzy. I don't know if I have a photo of it or not, but my darters used to be half of them colorless like that. I think the loss of color is a sign of stress. I mean, yes, if it's fuzzy it's columnaris. But just blanching of color doesn't mean it's columnaris.
Have you tried the dichotomous keys at fishy farmacy?
http://www.fishyfarm...s_in_color.html for example, more links at top of the page. They might bring up symptoms you can look in the tank and say yes or no to. http://www.fishyfarm..._disorders.html
The only thing I can see based on the symptoms you've listed is stress. The change in color is because of stress. What did the dead fish look like? Fuzzy? Scales protruding off? Fins all ripped up? Stomach looking like it had burst outward like in an alien movie?
Until you figure out what it is, lots of water changes may help. Dechlorinate the incoming water and make it the same temperature as what was there.
Have you tried the dichotomous keys at fishy farmacy?
http://www.fishyfarm...s_in_color.html for example, more links at top of the page. They might bring up symptoms you can look in the tank and say yes or no to. http://www.fishyfarm..._disorders.html
The only thing I can see based on the symptoms you've listed is stress. The change in color is because of stress. What did the dead fish look like? Fuzzy? Scales protruding off? Fins all ripped up? Stomach looking like it had burst outward like in an alien movie?
Until you figure out what it is, lots of water changes may help. Dechlorinate the incoming water and make it the same temperature as what was there.
Edited by EricaWieser, 06 October 2012 - 08:27 PM.
#4
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Posted 06 October 2012 - 08:47 PM
This isn't just discoloration. You can see from the shiners that it spreads down their back. Usually it starts like the scales are coming off. I don't know if I would call the white part fuzzy, but it does appear to be a lesion on the outside. It does seem like some kind of growth. The dorsal fin is usually frayed before the growth starts. No other noticeable damage to the fish.
#5
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Posted 06 October 2012 - 08:54 PM
Josh pretty sure you brought some fish in with a heavy parasite load, most likely a nematode. Somewhere in the bowels of the forum I wrote of a similar experience. You're likely going to lose everything. Sometimes I think we all forget we're taking fish directly from the wild in the summer when water is normally low, fish are packed into habitat, stressed, resources are scare, microbes are high, etc., etc., etc. They LOOK okay, but any sort of environmental change that they have to experience can be just what is needed to essentially cause an outbreak. It stopped me from even thinking about keeping fish basically between June-September. You're best be is to stop it at the source, get rid of your fish that are showing signs of tissue discoloration immediately. Not really sure you have many treatment options. Some salt wouldn't hurt.
#6
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Posted 06 October 2012 - 09:26 PM
i had an outbreak of something that looked exactly like that a while back in a tank i had just introduced some wild swamp darters into. whatever it was, it started out as a blanching of the skin that progressed from the caudal and dorsal fins. it ended with the fish convulsing and then dying. i dosed the tank heavily with penicillin, erythromycin, and tetracycline and it stopped it in its tracks. deaths stopped immediately and the fish quickly recovered.
after experiencing whatever that disease was, and on another occasion waking up one day to see nearly every fish dead or dying with open bloody sores(nasty dinoflagellate), i keep several antibiotic medications on hand. i used to think that quarantine tank could solve all the disease issues, but sometimes it seems that the new fish can carry potential diseases for a long time without showing simptoms.
after experiencing whatever that disease was, and on another occasion waking up one day to see nearly every fish dead or dying with open bloody sores(nasty dinoflagellate), i keep several antibiotic medications on hand. i used to think that quarantine tank could solve all the disease issues, but sometimes it seems that the new fish can carry potential diseases for a long time without showing simptoms.
Edited by Auban, 06 October 2012 - 09:28 PM.
#7
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Posted 06 October 2012 - 09:32 PM
Loss of color in that particular location is indicative of either columnaris, as previously mentioned, or pleistophora which is highly unlikely unless you keep tropicals in the tank. Even then it's very unlikely. Columnaris is best guess without microscopy.
#8
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Posted 07 October 2012 - 10:22 AM
Josh pretty sure you brought some fish in with a heavy parasite load, most likely a nematode. Somewhere in the bowels of the forum I wrote of a similar experience. You're likely going to lose everything. Sometimes I think we all forget we're taking fish directly from the wild in the summer when water is normally low, fish are packed into habitat, stressed, resources are scare, microbes are high, etc., etc., etc. They LOOK okay, but any sort of environmental change that they have to experience can be just what is needed to essentially cause an outbreak. It stopped me from even thinking about keeping fish basically between June-September. You're best be is to stop it at the source, get rid of your fish that are showing signs of tissue discoloration immediately. Not really sure you have many treatment options. Some salt wouldn't hurt.
Matt, I think you're right. I'm not familiar with the waterways we were in, but some didn't appear super clean. I'm currently dosing the entire tank with Furan-2 and salt. I'm also doing a direct Methylene Blue/Salt dip to some fish. I've already lost 2 fish this morning, and I can see some damage to a red-belly dace. I'll likely kill him today.
@Auban, I'm not really seeing open sores on these fish. They get that white patch, and usually die overnight so I don't see them die. If this Furan-2 and salt doesn't help I'll try something else.
#9
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Posted 07 October 2012 - 01:26 PM
Furan 2 can cause problems by itself. If you have any live plants you might want to put them in a separate tank while you're dosing. When I dosed with Furan 2 it wiped out my elodea dense and mutated my marimo ball into a strange, horrible form of cladophora that has persisted in my tanks to this day.
#10
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Posted 07 October 2012 - 03:08 PM
Wakatomika was surely not the cleanest looking creek midsummer.
#11
Guest_schambers_*
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Posted 07 October 2012 - 07:00 PM
I've lost more fish than usual after this trip, too. They look just like Josh's. They've mostly been new fish, but I have also lost some existing fish.
#12
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Posted 07 October 2012 - 08:52 PM
the bloody sores i was talking about was an unrelated issue. the disease that i encountered that looked like yours responded well to a shotgun blast of antibiotics, so my best guess would be that it was columnaris. it looked a lot like saddle back, but attacked the fish in slightly different ways.
#13
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Posted 09 October 2012 - 07:17 AM
I wouldn't over medicate, you're really just pouring money down the drain. Just eliminate the carriers. Everyone assumes that medications meant for tropical fish and primarily fungal or bacterial infections are the solution. These are not tropical fish and this is not a fungal or bacterial infection. This situation is just a risk that is present every time you collect and introduce fish into a tank from the wild during periods of low flow and elevated temperature. Native fish have parasites, ALL the time, it is just a matter of what kind, how much, if their health is already compromised, and the reaction to being put into a new environment.
#14
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Posted 09 October 2012 - 10:08 AM
Would a strong salt dip help before introducing a new fish to the aquarium?
#15
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Posted 09 October 2012 - 01:01 PM
Yes for anti bacterial purposes, and external parasites, but not for the internal parasite load that Matt Ashton is referring to. I am not certain that a heavy parasite load is causing your symptoms. I believe that it is a contributing factor by causing stress, weakening the fish, and allowing a fungal, or bacterial infection to take hold. I think Matt has a good point about the parasites, but I would bet that it is just one factor among others. I would certainly salt the tank heavily. Start with a tablespoon of pure non iodized salt (no anti caking agents either) then gradually add more daily for a few days.
#16
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Posted 09 October 2012 - 03:12 PM
Matt D. is right, there is really no way to point to a smoking gun, whether or not the parasite load was the mechanism for something else or the actual cause. In my past experience, I attributed it to an internal load of nematodes based on what we saw under the microscope. Anti-fungal agents didn't work for me nor did I see any evidence pointing to it being the culprit, only a secondary symptom. Either way, fish died.
If I would bring fish in this time of year, I left things in a bucket or cooler with a spare, aged sponge and or HOB filter for a good week, while mixing water from tank gradually. A few times to avoid major losses, time, money, etc., (laboratory purposes), we tried very weak (5-10 ppt) baths using 10% buffered formalin, but then again not everyone has access to formalin. Eliminate stress is the key, and that can best be done by not transporting fish when they are already stressed.
If I would bring fish in this time of year, I left things in a bucket or cooler with a spare, aged sponge and or HOB filter for a good week, while mixing water from tank gradually. A few times to avoid major losses, time, money, etc., (laboratory purposes), we tried very weak (5-10 ppt) baths using 10% buffered formalin, but then again not everyone has access to formalin. Eliminate stress is the key, and that can best be done by not transporting fish when they are already stressed.
#17
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Posted 10 October 2012 - 12:49 PM
The whitening starting on the fins and spreading onto the body looks very much like Flexibacter (Columnaris). If it's that and Furan meds aren't working, Kanamycin should. Here's some good info: http://www.flippersa...flexibacter.htm
But as you've noticed, Flexi spreads and kills FAST so only the fish in early stages of symptoms have a good chance of recovery. I find that having salt in the bucket during collecting (not after you get back to the car) lessens the risk of Flexibacter, presumably because it lessens the fright-induced salt loss from the body. And yes I agree other disease bugs (nematodes, flukes, protozoa ...) introduced with the new fish might be a contributing factor. Flexi usually needs some other stressor to let it in the door, although one heavily infected fish might do it in an aquarium.
Matt/Josh - do we have someone lined up for a collecting, transport & acclimation talk in KY yet? If not, shall I ?
Or shall we do it discussion panel style as Mark (i think) suggested?
But as you've noticed, Flexi spreads and kills FAST so only the fish in early stages of symptoms have a good chance of recovery. I find that having salt in the bucket during collecting (not after you get back to the car) lessens the risk of Flexibacter, presumably because it lessens the fright-induced salt loss from the body. And yes I agree other disease bugs (nematodes, flukes, protozoa ...) introduced with the new fish might be a contributing factor. Flexi usually needs some other stressor to let it in the door, although one heavily infected fish might do it in an aquarium.
Matt/Josh - do we have someone lined up for a collecting, transport & acclimation talk in KY yet? If not, shall I ?
Or shall we do it discussion panel style as Mark (i think) suggested?
#18
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Posted 10 October 2012 - 04:15 PM
Matt/Josh - do we have someone lined up for a collecting, transport & acclimation talk in KY yet? If not, shall I ?
Or shall we do it discussion panel style as Mark (i think) suggested?
I think a panel would be great. There are many different ways to transport and acclimate fish, and hearing from several experts would be helpful.
#19
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Posted 11 October 2012 - 09:03 AM
I may be new to natives but I am very experienced with tropical fish. This reminds me of a plague I experienced once and a lesson hard learned. Use a quarantine tank before adding any new fish. quarantine them for atleast 3-4 weeks). The first time I didnt have space for a 2nd tank. I bought fish from a private breeder that I'd purchased from before with out problem & from a local petshop. all the fish arrived the same day. Then the plague wiped out 2/3 of my tank (african cichlids & Synodontis multipunctatus). The next time I had a quarantine tank & quarantined for only 2 weeks. A pair of wild caught Lethrinops who had internal parasites. Seemed fine after 2 weeks. then I added them to the tank & everyone started getting sunken bellies. had to treat with a medicated fish food to clear it up. Dont take short cuts, its not worth it.
Edited by exasperatus2002, 11 October 2012 - 09:18 AM.
#20
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Posted 13 October 2012 - 09:42 AM
After a huge loss in fish, things have 'stablized' for now. I am out of town this weekend and will be back on Sunday, so I'll see then. I completed a treatment of Furan-2, and I'm going to follow up with Kanamycin to be safe.
And Gerald, yes we'd like something at the Convention about transport/acclimation. I'm not sure if we'd rather do a panel or one presentation. Either way, we'd like you involved if you want to be.
And Gerald, yes we'd like something at the Convention about transport/acclimation. I'm not sure if we'd rather do a panel or one presentation. Either way, we'd like you involved if you want to be.
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