Im starting to run low on my flake food. I was wondering from a particular vender what would be best for my natives. I order from your fish stuff. Im currently feeding the earthwork flakefood. Is there a better flake for my natives from their product line? Besides flake, I feed bloodworms & mysis shrimp to my dace & darters.
Prepared foods
Started by
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, Nov 07 2012 11:04 AM
15 replies to this topic
#2
Guest_michifish_*
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Posted 07 November 2012 - 11:52 AM
I like HBH soft and moist with krill that I get from Kensfish.com
#3
Guest_EricaWieser_*
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Posted 07 November 2012 - 11:59 AM
Hmm, bloodworms and mysis shrimp. If you want some grindal worms I can ship a starter culture to you for $10. Darters love live worms. And they're easy to culture. Instructions: http://forum.nanfa.o...ks/page__st__20
I made a chart of what all I feed my various fishes:
The bloodworms are expensive ($5 for 30 cubes, and I feed my fish three times a day), so I don't feed those to something unless I have to because they're diet's not diverse enough without them.
The grindal worms are my favorite of all the foods. Cheaper and easier than flake food, I feed my grindal worms dog/cat kibbles and spend about five minutes cleaning all the cultures every 1-3 weeks. It has been a year and they have still not eaten an entire $8 smallest possible bag of Kibbles 'N Bits.
If the fish will eat flake food I give it to them because it's vitamin enriched. But a diet of flake food alone can cause bloat. Also flake food's expensive and half my fish refuse to eat it.
Be careful when grating the frozen unbreaded cocktail shrimp the darters and 4 inch + carnivorous fish. I advise getting a pair of thick gloves.
I made a chart of what all I feed my various fishes:
The bloodworms are expensive ($5 for 30 cubes, and I feed my fish three times a day), so I don't feed those to something unless I have to because they're diet's not diverse enough without them.
The grindal worms are my favorite of all the foods. Cheaper and easier than flake food, I feed my grindal worms dog/cat kibbles and spend about five minutes cleaning all the cultures every 1-3 weeks. It has been a year and they have still not eaten an entire $8 smallest possible bag of Kibbles 'N Bits.
If the fish will eat flake food I give it to them because it's vitamin enriched. But a diet of flake food alone can cause bloat. Also flake food's expensive and half my fish refuse to eat it.
Be careful when grating the frozen unbreaded cocktail shrimp the darters and 4 inch + carnivorous fish. I advise getting a pair of thick gloves.
Edited by EricaWieser, 07 November 2012 - 12:22 PM.
#4
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Posted 07 November 2012 - 03:24 PM
My darters nibble flake but the dace love it. I feed flake first to the dace so they're full enough to let the darters feed on the bloodworms & mysis.
#5
Guest_EricaWieser_*
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Posted 07 November 2012 - 05:24 PM
Flake food does have a huge advantage over other foods in that it's vitamin enriched. And it's easier to grab and pinch flake than it is to get out the grater and grate a shrimp. I use the brand from the local pet store that comes in the biggest container and has the lowest percent fat in the ingredients. *goes and looks* Currently it's 193 grams of Wardley premium tropical fish flakes. Then I store the food in a smaller container so it only gets exposed to oxidation from air in small batches, with the main portion of the food remaining sealed for weeks at a time. In general I end up spending about $8-$15 every six months.My darters nibble flake but the dace love it. I feed flake first to the dace so they're full enough to let the darters feed on the bloodworms & mysis.
If you find a website with good flake food for cheaper than that please mention it here. The Ken's fish website previously has good customer service. I like the Golden Pearls product I got from them. It stays suspended in the water longer than other floating granules.
I bet your dace would flip out over shredded/grated cocktail shrimp. Have you tried it? I found it to be less expensive than flake food, since my 55 gallon tank of fish only ate a shrimp or two a day and I could buy a big bag of shrimps from Aldi's for $3-5. I kept the bag in the freezer and never did run out of it. Ended up moving and throwing it away.
Edited by EricaWieser, 07 November 2012 - 05:37 PM.
#6
mattknepley
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Posted 07 November 2012 - 06:06 PM
Currently my modest native collection consists of 6 whitefin shiners and a swamp darter. They all go crazy for just about anything you throw in there, but frozen bloodworms and New Life Spectrum small fish formula seem to get eaten with extra gusto. (My only other natives have been sunfish, madtoms, and crayfish. They weren't exactly finicky either.) They seem to have stayed pretty colored up on that diet, too.
If I can drag this a little off topic, though... Is there any reason foods formulated for salt-water species should not be fed to freshwater fish? I had a coupon for some Omega One food and gave the Marine Flakes a try. The protein isn't the highest, and the fat is a little high, but it has more fish ingredients than any flake I can remember seeing. I thought maybe it would fill a dietary need for some sunfish or yellow perch I'm considering adding to my collection without having to use feeders.
If I can drag this a little off topic, though... Is there any reason foods formulated for salt-water species should not be fed to freshwater fish? I had a coupon for some Omega One food and gave the Marine Flakes a try. The protein isn't the highest, and the fat is a little high, but it has more fish ingredients than any flake I can remember seeing. I thought maybe it would fill a dietary need for some sunfish or yellow perch I'm considering adding to my collection without having to use feeders.
Matt Knepley
"No thanks, a third of a gopher would merely arouse my appetite..."
"No thanks, a third of a gopher would merely arouse my appetite..."
#7
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Posted 07 November 2012 - 06:11 PM
The way you phrased it sort of implies that we feed predatory fish feeders in order to fulfill a dietary need. Technically all the nutrients they need are in the flake food/pellets which are, after all, usually made of baked fish. Often the reason why people feed feeders is because their fish won't eat flakes/pellets or for enjoyment (either for the fish or the owner).If I can drag this a little off topic, though... Is there any reason foods formulated for salt-water species should not be fed to freshwater fish? I had a coupon for some Omega One food and gave the Marine Flakes a try. The protein isn't the highest, and the fat is a little high, but it has more fish ingredients than any flake I can remember seeing. I thought maybe it would fill a dietary need for some sunfish or yellow perch I'm considering adding to my collection without having to use feeders.
Here's the ingredients list for Ocean Nutrition Prime Reef Flake Food:
INGREDIENTS: A fresh seafood mix including (salmon fillets, Euphausia pacific plankton, squid, salmon eggs and/or salmon egg oil, Euphausia superba plankton and/or krill hydrolysate, sea clams and/or sea urchin, kelp, herring, adult brine shrimp, and brine shrimp nauplii), MPAX™ (Marine Protein Amino eXtract: fish meals, hydrolysate, and select amino acids (arginine, histidine, isoeucine, leucine, lysine, methionine, cystine, phenylalanine, threonine, tryptophan, and valine), wheat flower, egg, lecithin, magnesium sulfate, vitamin premix (ascorbic acid, stabilized vitamin C, dl-alpha tocopheryl acetate, d-pantothenic acid, riboflavin, niacin, menadione, folacin, cholecalciferol, biotin, thiamin, retinol, pyrdoxine, and cyanocobalamin), carotenoid pigments (canthaxanthin and/or astaxanthin), artificial color, and preservative (ethoxyquin).
GUARANTEED ANALYSIS: Crude Protein (min) 48.7%, Crude Fat (min) 9.9%, Crude Fiber (max) 2.1%, Ash (max) 8.5%, Moisture (max) 8%.
Here's the ingredients list for Wardley Tropical Flake food:
Seeing the yeast in there reminds me that I do sprinkle baker's yeast (I keep a pound of it in my freezer) on the surface of the water every two days or so and the fish that eat flakes eat it. Yeast is what I feed the copepods that the mandarin dragonettes eat.Ingredients:
Fish Meal, Brewer's Dried Yeast, Ground Dried Spirulina, Wheat Flour, Rice Flour, De-hulled Soybean Meal, Fish Oil, Ground Dried Spinach, Soy Protein Isolate, Corn Gluten Meal, Wheat Gluten Meal, Potato Starch, Shrimp Meal, Lecithin, Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate, Choline Chloride, Xanthan Gum, Dl-methionine, Vitamin A supplement, Vitamin D3 supplement, Vitamin E supplement, Vitamin B12 supplement, Riboflavin supplement, Niacin supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Menadione Sodium Bisulfate Complex, Folic Acid, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Biotin, Yeast Extract, Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Potassium Iodate, Sodium Selenite, Cobalt Carbonate, and Ethoxyquin (a preservative).
Guaranteed Analysis:
Crude protein (min.) 42%, crude fat (min.) 9%, crude fiber (max.) 2%, moisture (max.) 8%, phosphorous (min.) 1%, Arginine 2.32%, Histidine .71%, Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C) 200 mg/kg
But anyway, yes, both foods are basically made up of the same thing: ground up baked fish and veggies with vitamins added.
There are some slight differences. The source of ingredients seems to be freshwater for the freshwater food and saltwater for the saltwater food. Maybe that has to do with salt content, I don't know. There might be a bit more carbs in the freshwater one from the wheat and rice flour, but that might not be true because neither ingredients list lists the proportions of things. All we know is there is more fish meal than flour in both foods. The carotenoids in the marine flake might help your fish color up red a little bit more. And the fat content of the marine flakes is probably shifted towards the omega-3-fatty acid side of things with the kelp and whatnot, which is a healthier fat for humans with our long lifespans to consume but I'm not sure if fish need to worry about a late in life disease like atherosclerosis.
The one thing I might worry about was the salt content of the foods, except that fish osmoregulate pretty well with their environment so it might not matter if their food was a bit saltier. In humans if we eat too much salt our kidneys can get stressed, which leads to high blood pressure which can cause atherosclerosis. But again, my fish usually die from other things. I lost a fish earlier today because her liver and intestine were randomly poking out of her side. Why? No idea. Maybe it was a fish hepatitis that inflamed her liver, increased her internal organ volume, increased the pressure, and burst out the side. I'll never know. I do know she was only about six to ten months old. Atherosclerosis is the #1 killer of humans but we live 80 years. A guppy bred to be fed to a larger predator probably doesn't have to worry about that.
Does anyone know the #1 killer of pet fish? That would give us context for what diseases we should be trying to avoid. I was under the impression most pet fish died with fatty liver, which was why I aim for a low fat content in the flake food I buy. But then I go ahead and feed them grindal worms to get them in spawning condition (which have 14.5% fat by dry mass, lol). So... yeah. Nutrition is sorta complicated. I don't think I'm qualified just yet to make any conclusions on anything. But I can look up some information, which I hope helps.
Edited by EricaWieser, 07 November 2012 - 06:36 PM.
#8
mattknepley
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Posted 07 November 2012 - 06:41 PM
Thanks, Erica. Good thought about the salt content.
I can empathize with your interest in the puffer. I admit it, feeding my fish is one of my favorite things about keeping them. I really enjoy trying to provide diets that keep them happy and healthy. Most of all though, I just like to watch them eat. Especially natives, they seem "truer" to their wild identities. Most of my tropicals just seem to float to the top and inhale, but not the natives. The whitefins go into a pack-hunt frenzy. My madtom wouldn't eat by day, even when you saw him out, but watching him in a darkened room was a treat- he thought it was nighttime and was he ever on a mission. My darter is an exception. He started out only eating frozen bloodworms rolling along the bottom of the tank in the current. His "sneak, pounce, inhale" routine never got old, for me. But then he realized all he had to do was float to the top, and now he's "gone tropical" in his feeding approach...
By the way, great job on your fish in focus article in the AC! I'd never really given dwarf sunfish any thought, but you changed that!
I can empathize with your interest in the puffer. I admit it, feeding my fish is one of my favorite things about keeping them. I really enjoy trying to provide diets that keep them happy and healthy. Most of all though, I just like to watch them eat. Especially natives, they seem "truer" to their wild identities. Most of my tropicals just seem to float to the top and inhale, but not the natives. The whitefins go into a pack-hunt frenzy. My madtom wouldn't eat by day, even when you saw him out, but watching him in a darkened room was a treat- he thought it was nighttime and was he ever on a mission. My darter is an exception. He started out only eating frozen bloodworms rolling along the bottom of the tank in the current. His "sneak, pounce, inhale" routine never got old, for me. But then he realized all he had to do was float to the top, and now he's "gone tropical" in his feeding approach...
By the way, great job on your fish in focus article in the AC! I'd never really given dwarf sunfish any thought, but you changed that!
Matt Knepley
"No thanks, a third of a gopher would merely arouse my appetite..."
"No thanks, a third of a gopher would merely arouse my appetite..."
#9
Guest_EricaWieser_*
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Posted 07 November 2012 - 07:32 PM
They're fun to watch eat, too.By the way, great job on your fish in focus article in the AC! I'd never really given dwarf sunfish any thought, but you changed that!
They may be an inch long but when they see a worm it disappears in a hurry. Micropredators are fun
Here's an Elassoma gilberti eating a grindal worm:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8HaabiHKlo
Edited by EricaWieser, 07 November 2012 - 07:32 PM.
#10
Guest_Kanus_*
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Posted 07 November 2012 - 10:29 PM
I can't pretend to compete with the level of knowledge and studying Erica has done on this topic, but I personally use saltwater flake more often than not for my natives and have for years. Never had any issues with my fish that seemed dietary, with the exception of the occasional darter being outcompeted for food.
#11
mattknepley
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Posted 08 November 2012 - 06:45 AM
No kidding, that grindal is gone fast! I don't know which is more impressive; the speed at which it hits that worm or the speed with which it inhales it!
Also, I didn't see your full answer until well after you had posted it. Lots to think on there. Thanks for taking the time!
Also, I didn't see your full answer until well after you had posted it. Lots to think on there. Thanks for taking the time!
Matt Knepley
"No thanks, a third of a gopher would merely arouse my appetite..."
"No thanks, a third of a gopher would merely arouse my appetite..."
#12
mattknepley
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Posted 08 November 2012 - 06:46 AM
Derek, what is your reasoning for using saltwater flake so frequently? Is there a reason specific to natives, or is it already on hand for saltwater tanks, or something else?
Matt Knepley
"No thanks, a third of a gopher would merely arouse my appetite..."
"No thanks, a third of a gopher would merely arouse my appetite..."
#13
Guest_Kanus_*
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Posted 08 November 2012 - 07:03 PM
My thinking is that high quality saltwater flake usually uses a variety of protein sources, many of which are crustacean based. Most of our native species of fish are primarily insectivores, so as far as prepared foods go, the more mashed up crustaceans in a flake food, the closer it is to their natural diet, rather than generic "fish meal" which has little to no resemblance to what the average shiner (or darter, for the species that will take flake) eat. Also, with that comes lots of natural carotenoid compounds in the food, lots of good fatty acids and omegas, and all that stuff that's supposed to be so good for tropicals, I figure it can't hurt.
Part of why I try to fill that gap in their diet so hard is because I am allergic to bloodworms. I still deal with them now and again, for finicky eaters, but stay away from them as much as I can. If I had my way, I would buy in bulk and feed frozen bloodworms extensively.
Part of why I try to fill that gap in their diet so hard is because I am allergic to bloodworms. I still deal with them now and again, for finicky eaters, but stay away from them as much as I can. If I had my way, I would buy in bulk and feed frozen bloodworms extensively.
#14
Guest_EricaWieser_*
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Posted 08 November 2012 - 07:49 PM
I think most people are allergic to bloodworms. You're not alone. That's one of the reasons I use grindal worms instead of bloodworms; I used to feed freeze dried bloodworms to my betta and the dust that came up from the container was just terrible. Euch.Part of why I try to fill that gap in their diet so hard is because I am allergic to bloodworms. I still deal with them now and again, for finicky eaters, but stay away from them as much as I can. If I had my way, I would buy in bulk and feed frozen bloodworms extensively.
#15
mattknepley
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Posted 09 November 2012 - 08:42 PM
Thanks, Derek. That sounds reasonable to me. Too bad nobody's marketing an "insectivore" flake. I didn't realize there were so many people with bloodworm issues. Perhaps fruit flies could be used to provide fish diets with genuine insects. I kept dart frogs for a little while, and raising flies is a piece of cake. I did try to get my tropicals to take them, but no go. (Didn't have the cyprinellas then.) I never did try the larvae, just adults; wonder now if they would've eaten those little wigglers.
By the way, while the fish themselves pulled me back into natives, it was the people on the forum pulled me back into NANFA! Thanks again for entertaining my questions, Erica and Derek!
By the way, while the fish themselves pulled me back into natives, it was the people on the forum pulled me back into NANFA! Thanks again for entertaining my questions, Erica and Derek!
Matt Knepley
"No thanks, a third of a gopher would merely arouse my appetite..."
"No thanks, a third of a gopher would merely arouse my appetite..."
#16
Guest_Kanus_*
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Posted 09 November 2012 - 09:31 PM
Glad we could have this discussion! I am pretty interested in fish nutrition and how it may be able to be improved upon for natives. As for fruit flies, I have cultured them small-scale and they are great for shiners and surface feeders, but I have never thought about using larvae for bottom-dwellers. I suppose if a clean harvesting system could be figured out, they might work well for small darters, though they probably wouldn't stay lively for long. It's too bad something like maybe caddisfly larvae couldn't (?) be cultured in good numbers to provide a nice insect diet.
Another food source I have used a bit, thanks to my fisheries work and access to it on occasion, is fish roe. I have frozen shad ovaries in my freezer and it seems that most of the fish, including darters, recognize roe pretty much instantly as a food source. I also have some roe from Northern Snakehead, which interestingly, floats. I stripped the snakehead roe from the ovaries and actually made it into frozen cubes. Great shiner food, and the eggs that get pushed to the bottom by the filter quickly become darter chow.
Another food source I have used a bit, thanks to my fisheries work and access to it on occasion, is fish roe. I have frozen shad ovaries in my freezer and it seems that most of the fish, including darters, recognize roe pretty much instantly as a food source. I also have some roe from Northern Snakehead, which interestingly, floats. I stripped the snakehead roe from the ovaries and actually made it into frozen cubes. Great shiner food, and the eggs that get pushed to the bottom by the filter quickly become darter chow.
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