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Flathead catfish bad news in North Carolina


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#1 Guest_Gambusia_*

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 01:07 PM

http://www.elkintrib...nstance=popular

#2 Guest_davidjh2_*

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 05:24 PM

That's a shame, Flatheads have supposedly made it into the Delaware river but I have yet to see one.

#3 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 05:52 PM

:(

#4 Guest_exasperatus2002_*

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 08:59 PM

That's a shame, Flatheads have supposedly made it into the Delaware river but I have yet to see one.


Im a member of the brotherhood of catfisherman. the guys from philly fairly regularly catch them regularly on the delaware. You just have to know where. I only catfish Lake nockamixon & green lane reservoir which only have channels & bullheads. though deep creek which is fed from greenlane reservoir has recently been discovered to have a few flats in it but nothing substantial yet.

#5 Guest_FirstChAoS_*

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 10:35 AM

People focus so much on exotics like snakeheads and carp we often fail to see how destructive our own natives can be as invaders. Much of the fish history in the northeast has been about introduction of game fish damaging populations of natives.

I wonder if the bullheads will find a new niche, or die. Or If some will be captured from captive breeding or stocked in a water without flatheads.

#6 Guest_gerald_*

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 12:53 PM

In the mid-90s I did some boat electrofishing with NC-WRC biologists Joe Mickey and Chad Thomas on the Yadkin River for a water supply intake project. We got loads of bullheads (snail, flat, brown, white), redhorse suckers and brassy jumprock above Idols Dam, and very few of any of those below Idols Dam, presumably due in part to flathead cat predation & competition. So it appears suckers are another favorite prey of flatheads.

The Carolina madtom, endemic to the Tar and Neuse Rivers (NC) and the only "saddled madtom" (subgenus Rabida) on the Atlantic slope, has declined severely since the 1970s. It's nearly gone now from most of the Neuse and lower Tar River, except in a few tribs. The only place it's still fairly common is the upper Tar River which is flathead-free (?). I dont know to what extent flathead cats are responsible for the madtom's decline, but I suspect they're a factor, along with decline of large mussels. Big dead mussel shells with attached valves are a favorite madtom nesting site.

PS - The photo captions in the Elkin News article are reversed. Top photo is a flat bullhead I think. (or might be snail bullhead - can't see barbel color and anal fin shape in that pic).

Edited by gerald, 20 November 2012 - 01:08 PM.


#7 Guest_davidjh2_*

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 02:35 PM

Im a member of the brotherhood of catfisherman. the guys from philly fairly regularly catch them regularly on the delaware. You just have to know where. I only catfish Lake nockamixon & green lane reservoir which only have channels & bullheads. though deep creek which is fed from greenlane reservoir has recently been discovered to have a few flats in it but nothing substantial yet.


I fish above Trenton and below Frenchtown usually in or around fast moving water so maybe they don't like that environment. I wouldn't mind catching one but not as an invasive on the Delaware. Now if they get into the Millstone river there are huge numbers of Tadpole Madtoms that will unfortunately be decimated.

#8 Guest_pylodictis_*

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 02:44 PM

In the mid-90s I did some boat electrofishing with NC-WRC biologists Joe Mickey and Chad Thomas on the Yadkin River for a water supply intake project. We got loads of bullheads (snail, flat, brown, white), redhorse suckers and brassy jumprock above Idols Dam, and very few of any of those below Idols Dam, presumably due in part to flathead cat predation & competition. So it appears suckers are another favorite prey of flatheads.

The Carolina madtom, endemic to the Tar and Neuse Rivers (NC) and the only "saddled madtom" (subgenus Rabida) on the Atlantic slope, has declined severely since the 1970s. It's nearly gone now from most of the Neuse and lower Tar River, except in a few tribs. The only place it's still fairly common is the upper Tar River which is flathead-free (?). I dont know to what extent flathead cats are responsible for the madtom's decline, but I suspect they're a factor, along with decline of large mussels. Big dead mussel shells with attached valves are a favorite madtom nesting site.

PS - The photo captions in the Elkin News article are reversed. Top photo is a flat bullhead I think. (or might be snail bullhead - can't see barbel color and anal fin shape in that pic).


Don't quote me on this because I can't find the source for this information but I believe I read somewhere(I recall filing it under "reputable source" in my mind), that Olivaris tends to find one abundant prey species and "home-in" on those. Here in Richmond, VA there's a portion of the James that has been completely infested, they stack up in holes where you can see 10, 20 and 30 mature individuals under a rock with a mask and snorkel. They have nearly eradicated Ameiurus and Ictalurus Catus from the drainage(with the help of Ictalutus Furcatus and others), I have never seen either in the river. They were once abundant. Though they haven't(At least to what I've seen, though I don't have anything to compare it too, so take this with a grain of salt.) seemed to impact the Cypriniformes as badly, I catch many of those(generally juviniles though) in areas full of Olivaris.

People focus so much on exotics like snakeheads and carp we often fail to see how destructive our own natives can be as invaders. Much of the fish history in the northeast has been about introduction of game fish damaging populations of natives.

I wonder if the bullheads will find a new niche, or die. Or If some will be captured from captive breeding or stocked in a water without flatheads.

In the mid-90s I did some boat electrofishing with NC-WRC biologists Joe Mickey and Chad Thomas on the Yadkin River for a water supply intake project. We got loads of bullheads (snail, flat, brown, white), redhorse suckers and brassy jumprock above Idols Dam, and very few of any of those below Idols Dam, presumably due in part to flathead cat predation & competition. So it appears suckers are another favorite prey of flatheads.

The Carolina madtom, endemic to the Tar and Neuse Rivers (NC) and the only "saddled madtom" (subgenus Rabida) on the Atlantic slope, has declined severely since the 1970s. It's nearly gone now from most of the Neuse and lower Tar River, except in a few tribs. The only place it's still fairly common is the upper Tar River which is flathead-free (?). I dont know to what extent flathead cats are responsible for the madtom's decline, but I suspect they're a factor, along with decline of large mussels. Big dead mussel shells with attached valves are a favorite madtom nesting site.

PS - The photo captions in the Elkin News article are reversed. Top photo is a flat bullhead I think. (or might be snail bullhead - can't see barbel color and anal fin shape in that pic).


Absolutely brother! Snakeheads are just competition for the highly invasive "gamefish" like largemouth. Sadly I doubt it, I think they will go the way of ictalurus Catus and nearly die out in infested drainages. I have never seen one in the James(I like a mile from it and have been sampling and fishing it my whole life) which has the worst ictalurus Furcatus and pylodictis Olivaris infestation I know of every where. They constitute the vast, vast majority of the biomass and have big money behind them from recreational and commercial fishing. The only way to manage them and make everyone happy is too legalize electro-fishing and cut the population of the juviniles, in the James 90% of the fish biomass is Furcatus and only %1 of those are over "32 mature fish of catchable size for anglers. Electro fishing will create the ability to target those juveniles while leaving the mature fish intact for anglers, also it is extremely low impact compared to other methods. There is little data about Olivaris because they are more abundant upstream in areas devoid of commercial fishing and there is not so much money in the recreational fishing for them here. It is a sad state of affairs that the people charged with protecting the fishery seem to do the most damage.

#9 Guest_Kanus_*

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 03:03 PM

Pylodictis, I got out with DGIF in July and got to do low frequency electrofishing of the lower James around Hopewell. White Cats are still there, especially in the tributary creeks, but Blue Cats outnumber them about 25 to one. The abundance of the predatory catfish was astounding.

We only got one flathead catfish, but it was absolutely the most vicious fish I have ever seen, and I would hate to see what they could do in large numbers. Immediately after being shocked and netted, one of the biologists wiggled his fingers at the surface of the water in the livewell and this foot-long flathead snapped his fingers three or four times. I have seen voracious predators, but this thing was fearless and not fazed by anything.

I hate to see them spreading. Worthy sportfish and interesting species as they are, they don't belong on the Atlantic slope.

#10 Guest_pylodictis_*

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 05:08 PM

Pylodictis, I got out with DGIF in July and got to do low frequency electrofishing of the lower James around Hopewell. White Cats are still there, especially in the tributary creeks, but Blue Cats outnumber them about 25 to one. The abundance of the predatory catfish was astounding.

We only got one flathead catfish, but it was absolutely the most vicious fish I have ever seen, and I would hate to see what they could do in large numbers. Immediately after being shocked and netted, one of the biologists wiggled his fingers at the surface of the water in the livewell and this foot-long flathead snapped his fingers three or four times. I have seen voracious predators, but this thing was fearless and not fazed by anything.

I hate to see them spreading. Worthy sportfish and interesting species as they are, they don't belong on the Atlantic slope.



That's good to hear, I have friends that have been electro-fishing on the lower James with the DGIF and there was a larger majority of blues, I believe it was closer to 65 to 1. I believe white catfish are more tolerant of increased salinity than blues and this may be responsible for the increased white catfish percentage you saw, also I've never seen data from a tributary where they are more common.

Flathead catfish are not at all abundant in that section of the river because of a lack of mating habitat, though in the upper river, especially in Richmond between Bosher Dam and the Fall line they are extremely prolific.

They certainly are a great sport fish, I personally love fishing for both flatheads and blues, but I can not help but dislike them for the damage they cause. I differ with the department on many issues but I think they're current policy on catfish seems to be a good one, anglers can keep unlimited fish under "32 and only one over "32.

I spoke at a public forum hosted by ASMFC and DGIF discussing and looking for public input on the situation. The consensus was that since we can't get rid of them we might as well manage the mature fish for the trophy fishery.



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