Edited by davidjh2, 20 November 2012 - 08:25 PM.
Shiner from NJ id.
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, Nov 20 2012 08:14 PM
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#1
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Posted 20 November 2012 - 08:14 PM
I caught some shiners today at lunchtime that I think I've already identified. I'm thinking they are Swallowtail Shiners. I just want to know for sure before I bring some home. They were caught in the Delaware river in Mercer county.
#2
Michael Wolfe
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Posted 21 November 2012 - 08:30 AM
Well, I was hoping one of the shiner ID experts would jump in here, but since they didn't I will provide my two cents worth of research.
I think it is a juv. common shiner or whatever your local Luxilus is for the following reasons:
I think it is a juv. common shiner or whatever your local Luxilus is for the following reasons:
- All the descriptions of swallowtails talk about them being "delecate and small"... you fish looks rather robust.
- large eye and thick caudal peduncle had me thinking Luxilus
- The dipping down double dashed line does not go with the pictures of swallowtails in my "Fishes of Virginia". However, your fish looks a lot like the photo of the juv. white shiner on page 374 (a different Luxilus I know, but still similar).
- I had a similar looking fish identified as a Luxilus here on the forum some time ago and the pictures are similar http://forum.nanfa.o...t-georgia-trip/
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#3
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Posted 21 November 2012 - 09:36 AM
David, you might want to consider Notropis hudsonius...
Folks need to spend more time in streams and less time on the internets. Lots of heat and not much light, if you know what I mean.
Folks need to spend more time in streams and less time on the internets. Lots of heat and not much light, if you know what I mean.
#4
Michael Wolfe
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Posted 21 November 2012 - 09:51 AM
crap... see I knew I should have waited... and oh, I hate those variable hudsonius... but I did at least use a reference book, not the internet to do my research
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin
#5
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Posted 21 November 2012 - 11:01 AM
Ahh a Spottail that was my second guess they just looked more like Swallowtails when I compared the pictures. Okay I'm off at lunchtime for some Notropis hudsonius. I may actually learn the scientifical names for fish someday. I tend to only refer to crayfish by their latin names but the habit has not taken hold for fish yet
#6
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Posted 21 November 2012 - 11:29 AM
We have spottails and swallowtails occurring together many places here in NC too.
If it's larger than 3" TL it;s a spottail; if smaller then look for these differences in live fish:
1. Spottail's eye is slightly larger (relative to body size) and more oval than swallowtail's eye, and more of the eye is visible when viewed from above.
2. Swallowtail has more translucent body color, less silvery reflectance than spottail, especially when viewed from above.
3. Swallowtail has more yellow around pectoral fins than spottail (varies with season and age).
Michael -- One way you can tell it's not a common shiner is because the scales between the back of head and front of dorsal fin are only about 1.5 to 2.0 x taller than wide. In Luxilus those scales would be about 3x taller than wide.
If it's larger than 3" TL it;s a spottail; if smaller then look for these differences in live fish:
1. Spottail's eye is slightly larger (relative to body size) and more oval than swallowtail's eye, and more of the eye is visible when viewed from above.
2. Swallowtail has more translucent body color, less silvery reflectance than spottail, especially when viewed from above.
3. Swallowtail has more yellow around pectoral fins than spottail (varies with season and age).
Michael -- One way you can tell it's not a common shiner is because the scales between the back of head and front of dorsal fin are only about 1.5 to 2.0 x taller than wide. In Luxilus those scales would be about 3x taller than wide.
#7
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Posted 21 November 2012 - 11:48 AM
Thanks Gerald, that helps a lot and they were all 3" or larger too. I caught 6 total in leaf litter along the water's edge so I now where they are. I'll go and get a few for my 75 gallon at lunchtime. I'm really hoping to get lucky and get a Tesselated Darter or 2 for my 10 gallon but I don't recall those being too common in leaf litter like the shiners are when it gets cold.
#8
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Posted 22 November 2012 - 12:24 PM
Well I brought some home yesterday and after a few hours of acclimation I put them in my 75 gallon tank. The results were interesting... The baby Red Eared Slider that I caught and gave my wife as a Mother's Day present(big mistake little bugger goes after everything) started chasing them, they started trying to hide under rocks that had crayfish under them. I saw one get eaten for sure as it swam by a floating log that my young Bullhead lives in. A 3 inch shiner got gulped down by a 5 inch Bullhead so fast tht it was hard to see. I'm pretty sure another one didn't survive long after the baby turtle and a crayfish started having a tug of war with it. I have 4 left and they are hanging out with the Common Shiners near the surface so they are safe from the crayfish anyway.
#9
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Posted 23 November 2012 - 09:08 AM
Thanks Gerald, that helps a lot and they were all 3" or larger too. I caught 6 total in leaf litter along the water's edge so I now where they are. I'll go and get a few for my 75 gallon at lunchtime. I'm really hoping to get lucky and get a Tesselated Darter or 2 for my 10 gallon but I don't recall those being too common in leaf litter like the shiners are when it gets cold.
If you have no luck with the tesselated darters, come spring we'll head out for a few. I need a hand with that school of banded killies. We could kill 2 birds with one stone.
#10
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Posted 23 November 2012 - 03:10 PM
Works for me,I'll make sure to set aside in the spring for that. I have some bandeds btw I can catch them fairly easily out of the Delaware they hang in the same leaf litter as the shiners. I'd really like to check out those crayfish burrows that you found too.
Edited by davidjh2, 23 November 2012 - 03:10 PM.
#11
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Posted 26 November 2012 - 07:53 PM
A turtle in your fishtank (or fish in your turtle tank, as the case seems to be) is real bad idea. Unless your aim is to feed your turtle fresh fish. The crayfish might nail them too, when the lights are out and the fish tend to "sleep" at the bottom.
#12
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Posted 27 November 2012 - 12:54 PM
I'm not too happy about the red eared slider being in my 75 gallon but since he is my wife's turtle I can't release him back to the wild like i would have liked to during the summer. He is very cute and but also way too aggressive, I moved him out of my 30 gallon high tank because he was eating my young crayfish. My map turtle on the other hand is not aggressive at all and has never gone after any of my fish or crayfish. Hopefully this spring I'll be able to release the red ear.
#13
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Posted 27 November 2012 - 04:08 PM
Do not release a Red Eared Slider in NJ, even if it was originally caught there! Invasive species!I'm not too happy about the red eared slider being in my 75 gallon but since he is my wife's turtle I can't release him back to the wild like i would have liked to during the summer. He is very cute and but also way too aggressive, I moved him out of my 30 gallon high tank because he was eating my young crayfish. My map turtle on the other hand is not aggressive at all and has never gone after any of my fish or crayfish. Hopefully this spring I'll be able to release the red ear.
#14
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Posted 28 November 2012 - 05:02 PM
REVISION to my Nov 21 post (too late to edit it now):
"One way you can tell it's not a common shiner is because the LATERAL LINE SCALES BEHIND THE HEAD are only about 1.5 to 2.0 x taller than wide. In Luxilus those scales would be about 3x taller than wide."
>> (I was just looking at the striped shiner photos posted today in another thread and realized my error: In Luxilus the Anterior Lateral Line scales are tall and narrow, but other anterior scales higher on the body are similar in shape to Notropis scales).
ALSO: Agree with Subrosa: Find the turtle another home; please don't release.
"One way you can tell it's not a common shiner is because the LATERAL LINE SCALES BEHIND THE HEAD are only about 1.5 to 2.0 x taller than wide. In Luxilus those scales would be about 3x taller than wide."
>> (I was just looking at the striped shiner photos posted today in another thread and realized my error: In Luxilus the Anterior Lateral Line scales are tall and narrow, but other anterior scales higher on the body are similar in shape to Notropis scales).
Michael -- One way you can tell it's not a common shiner is because the scales between the back of head and front of dorsal fin are only about 1.5 to 2.0 x taller than wide. In Luxilus those scales would be about 3x taller than wide.
ALSO: Agree with Subrosa: Find the turtle another home; please don't release.
Edited by gerald, 28 November 2012 - 05:04 PM.
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