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Four Shiners from the James River / Finley Creek, MO

Started by Guest_BenCantrell_* , Dec 20 2012 04:19 PM

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18 replies to this topic

#1 Guest_BenCantrell_*

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 04:19 PM

Caught these over the summer in Finley Creek less than a quarter mile from its confluence with the James River in south central Missouri. Being so hard to ID, I had forgotten about them until now. Being snowed in seems like a good reason to try to figure them out. All fish were released and swam away fine.

Shiner #1
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Shiner #2
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Shiner #3
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Shiner #4
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As far as research, I dug up this table of fish sampled in the James River and Finley Creek.
http://mdc.mo.gov/la...community/tab-5

As best as I can tell, here are the candidates to choose from.
Notropis boops - Bigeye Shiner
Notropis chrysocephalus - Striped Shiner
Notropis galacturus - Whitetail Shiner
Notropis greenei - Wedgespot Shiner
Notropis nubilus - Ozark Minnow
Notropis pilsbryi - Duskystripe Shiner
Notropis rubellus - Rosyface Shiner
Notropis telescopus - Telescope Shiner
Notropis ozarcanus - Ozark Shiner
Notemigonus crysoleucas - Golden Shiner
Hybopsis amblops - Bigeye Chub

If you're up to the challenge, I'd love to hear your thoughts on what these might be!

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#2 Guest_daveneely_*

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 06:09 PM

There are obvious characters (visible even in your photos) that should allow you to eliminate at least some of the fish on your list.

Do you have access to a copy of Page & Burr's Peterson Field Guide to Freshwater Fishes or Pflieger's Fishes of Missouri?

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#3 Guest_BenCantrell_*

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 06:43 PM

I have the Peterson guide, but not the Fishes of Missouri. I'll see if I can find a copy of the latter, thanks!

I don't see black on the chin of any of mine, so that would rule out bigeye shiner. The mouths are terminal on all of mine so that would rule out bigeye chub. The lack of black stripes would rule out ozark minnow and duskystripe shiner. The elongated body shape of mine probably rules out golden shiner and striped shiner.

Fish #1 - The mouth being open on this photo makes this one hard to ID. Could be the same as Fish #2.

Fish #2 - The mouth shape and body shape looks kind of like telescope or wedgespot. If the snout were more pronounced maybe it could be a juvenile whitetail?

Fish #3 - The elongated body, black streaks in all of the fins, and light black spot at the base of the tail are making me think Ozark Shiner. I can't find any other shiners with black streaks on the fins, so I'm feeling pretty confident about this one.

Fish #4 - Could also be the same as Fish #2, not sure though.

Think I'm getting warmer?

Edited by BenCantrell, 20 December 2012 - 06:44 PM.

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#4 Guest_daveneely_*

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 07:20 PM

Any of the other species that you can eliminate?

Black stripes on the body can sometimes disappear with stress, mood, lighting, etc. I think 1, 2, and 4 are all the same.

I think you're looking too hard for black streaks on #3. Body shape is a good hint, though...

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#5 Guest_Casper_*

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 07:52 PM

OK...
I am gonna play.
Looks like you had fun catching tiny fish with tiny hooks.
TN shares a lot of fish with MO/AR even though we are seperated by the MS River.

I think 1 & 2 and probably 4 are all the same specie. Perhaps a chance of 3 too.

With my eye i would delete...

Bigeye Chub. Because your fish lack the underslung mouth of a Chub.

Whitetail Shiner. Your fish lack the hourglass white caudal marks i see in my waters.

Duskystripe Shiner. I caught several after the MO convention and kept them in the cement pond. They had distinctive markings. I see no marking on your fish.

Golden Shiner. They usually look deeper and with a pronounced keel. Bait fish. Good for aquariums. Get big. FL has a redtailed version.

Telescope Shiner. Telescopes are much more "elegant" than what i am seeing here.

Rosyface Shiner. I think they have a blunter nose and subterminal mouth. I do not see them a lot though.

I do not know the Ozark Minnow or OZ Shiner nor the Wedgespot. Aint from around here.

That leaves me with photos 1,2 & 4 being a Striped Shiner. Big eye, coarse and flaking scales, aggressive upturned mouth. I would like to see a deeper body though. They tend to like deeper flowing pools. Males get crazy big and rainbow pearlescent in the spring. Heavy tuberculations. Spawn over chub mounds along with other species.

That is my non professional guess.

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#6 Guest_BenCantrell_*

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 08:05 PM

How about rosyface (or carmine rather) shiner for #3? I know my pictures aren't very good because it's hard to see the fins, but I think it looks like the dorsal fin is significantly back from the pelvic fin.

Posted Image

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#7 Guest_BenCantrell_*

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 08:10 PM

Here's a juvenile striped shiner I caught in IL in the Wabash drainage. Fish #1, #2, and #4 seem to have more elongated bodies, but I really don't trust my eyes on this sort of thing.

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#8 Guest_daveneely_*

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 09:19 AM

Yes for carmine (#3). Well done.

You're on the right track with the striped shiner... but why?

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#9 Guest_BenCantrell_*

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 10:49 AM

I can see a faint dark stripe above the lateral line, especially on shiner #2.

Elevated lateral line scales are hard to see, but it looks like they're visible on shiner #3.

Edited by BenCantrell, 21 December 2012 - 10:49 AM.

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#10 Guest_daveneely_*

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 11:25 AM

To be fair, of all the members of that genus, this group of species has lateral line scales that aren't quite as deep as the others, and a more slender body than most...

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#11 Michael Wolfe

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North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 21 December 2012 - 12:41 PM

Just to clarify when you say "that genus" you actually mean Luxilus, correct?

I mean striped shiners and dusky stripe are Luxilus and whitetails are Cyprinella...

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

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#12 Guest_gerald_*

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 12:45 PM

I think he's nudging you toward duskystripe, the only other Luxilus on your list of possibilities.
Hard to believe that such a colorless minnow could knock your socks off in spring.

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#13 Guest_BenCantrell_*

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 01:16 PM

Sorry about the wrong genus on some of those. I copied and pasted from that MO website, where they used Notropis for all of them.

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#14 Guest_daveneely_*

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 01:26 PM

I don't have a photo of a bleached-out Luxilus pilsbryi, but here's L. cardinalis w/o much color or stripe.

http://gallery.nanfa...G_7115.jpg.html

Luxilus cardinalis, L. pilsbryi, and L. zonatus all look pretty similar out of breeding dress; head shape, mouth shape and orientation, body shape, the faint dusky lateral stripe, and if you can see it, the nine anal fin rays would all help point in the right direction... and of course, the drainage narrows it down to Luxilus pilsbryi.

Edited by daveneely, 21 December 2012 - 01:26 PM.

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#15 Guest_daveneely_*

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 01:28 PM

...and Casper, yes I'm working on it! Soon!

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#16 Guest_BenCantrell_*

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 01:49 PM

Dave, and others, thank you so much for the help. It's slow going, but I'll get better at this eventually. I have a small photo tank now, so future pictures will include good shots of the fins. I should probably also remember to photograph the fish from the top in case scale crowding or a dark stripe along the top is an identifying characteristic.

For the sake of my microfishing list, I still like the photos of the fish in my hand. Even though it doesn't mean anything, to me it distinguishes it as a fish that I caught hook and line rather than with a net.

Edited by BenCantrell, 21 December 2012 - 01:50 PM.

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#17 Guest_gerald_*

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 06:29 PM

For me its easier to stare at and study a photo of a fish in a tank.
If it's out of water, in net or hand, I can only bear to look for a few seconds and then I want put it back in the water.