Jump to content


75g Stream Tank


  • Please log in to reply
42 replies to this topic

#1 Guest_jakemyster44_*

Guest_jakemyster44_*
  • Guests

Posted 20 February 2013 - 10:19 PM

Hey guys, its been a while since I've posted but I finally will be making the tank I have been thinking of for a few years. To recap, the the setup is a 75g aquarium with 3" of kitty litter topped with a thin layer of sand. I will have river rock on top of the sand provide many outcrops for darters, I will have a powerhead on the far left side providing sufficient current. The tank will be planted with val. and anacharis. The setup will be filtered by a fluval 305 canister filter as well as a large aquaclear or fluval HOB filter. I was wondering about the light requirements of the plants. Would a fixture with two t5 bulbs e sufficient? I want healthy plants, and dont mind algae growth on rocks and back glass, at least to a certain extent. I do however, want to avoid excessive aslgae growth and heat buildup, so I'm just looking for the minimum lighting necessary for the plants to thrive. Species wise I am looking at darters, shiners, top minnows, killifish, as well as stone cat madtoms, orange spotted sunfish, and mud minnows for a slack water portion that will be located in the far right of the tank (furthest from powerhead). This area will be heavily planted, with wood structures and rocks for hiding. Any advise would be greatly appreciated! I cant wait to finally build the tank.

#2 Guest_jakemyster44_*

Guest_jakemyster44_*
  • Guests

Posted 23 February 2013 - 01:26 PM

Also, I have a few more specific questions about my setup. Below is a rough layout of the plan:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I I
I I
I ^ heavily planted I
I I low current I
I I I
I driftwood I
I powerhead roots I
I riffle(large flat rocks) sand/kitty litter substrate I
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
First off, I was considering getting a rio 2100 powerhead and making a spray bar for it. Would this be adequate fliow for darters and shiners? The plan is for the current to last untill the driftwood roots and be slowed down for a still water, heavily planted area can occur. Is this possible with that model, or any model for that matter? how much is enough flow for around 2.5' (of the 4' length aquarium) of water?
I was also wondering about which native plants would work well? I plan on putting some valisneria in the riffle, and then having bunches of anacharis and more valisneria planted around the driftwood roots, too help break the current. Any reccomendations for a carpeting plant? I was wondering how dwarf hairgrass would look in the sand/kitty litter substrate in the still water section? Lighting will likely be two t5 bulbs.
The far right area of the tank will have no curent and will likely be used by the madtoms, mud minnows, and orange spotted sunfish. Does that sound like it could work? Then the riffle will be home to the darters, shiners, etc.

#3 Guest_Subrosa_*

Guest_Subrosa_*
  • Guests

Posted 23 February 2013 - 02:19 PM

Spray bars are evil if you want maximum flow. Trying to get slack spots in a tank full of moving water is a matter of trial and error with moving the decor and adjusting the flow. I ran a 30 gal (36" x 12" footprint) for Rainbow Shiners and Rainbow Darters with a SEIO 2600 for circulation. Thats 2600 gph. The tank was a jacuzzi, but there were slack spots behind objects that the fish exploited, probably just as they would in a moving stream. No plants, but I thought Willow Moss would have been worth a try. But getting a large area of slack water in a high flow tank tank as small as a 75? It will require a major piece of structure to contain the flow, like a large rock wall extending from the back of the tank almost to the front. This should be able to keep excessive flow out of one section.

#4 Guest_EricaWieser_*

Guest_EricaWieser_*
  • Guests

Posted 23 February 2013 - 05:03 PM

The one thing I would say about powerheads is they're super cheap online. I got mine for 2 for $25

#5 Guest_jakemyster44_*

Guest_jakemyster44_*
  • Guests

Posted 23 February 2013 - 07:13 PM

Would you suggest two koralia type powerheads then, as opposed to one that would require a spray bar?

#6 Guest_EricaWieser_*

Guest_EricaWieser_*
  • Guests

Posted 23 February 2013 - 09:11 PM

Would you suggest two koralia type powerheads then, as opposed to one that would require a spray bar?

My 1300 gallon per hour (GPH) powerhead, the 2 for $25 I mentioned earlier, is very powerful. Slackwater fish go hide when it's turned on, lol. I used to suggest a whole elaborate pipe system to get a return current under the ground to make a continuous circuit and encourage water flow, but after buying the 1300 GPH powerheads now I just emphasize that GPH really are everything.

Edited by EricaWieser, 23 February 2013 - 09:11 PM.


#7 Michael Wolfe

Michael Wolfe
  • Board of Directors
  • North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 23 February 2013 - 10:34 PM

Would you suggest two koralia type powerheads then, as opposed to one that would require a spray bar?


Yes, I agree with Erica, all of the spray bars and such to not add that much. A couple of powerheads (I do like the Koralia idea) provide plenty of flow for your fish.
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

#8 Guest_Doug_Dame_*

Guest_Doug_Dame_*
  • Guests

Posted 24 February 2013 - 03:35 AM

I've just set up a 70 gal moving water "stream" tank, which has a bigger footprint than a 75. (Both are 48" long, but the std 75 is 18 inches wide, whereas my 70 is 24 inches wide. Which it makes up for by being less tall. AKA squatty.)

I agree with Subrosa that getting large areas of quiet water will be a challenge. With enough gph, in a normal configuration the water is going to tend to do the NASCAR thing, round and round and round and round. I'm not sure that a plant barrier would be sufficient to effectively wall off an area, or even stand up to a LOT of current.

Note that spraybars from external filters will primarily influence movement in the top waters. Won't do much life-style improvement for darters at the bottom.

But here's an idea ... untested ... that you might try. On your diagram, put the water-moving-device (WMD) on the lower wall just above the substrate, directly under the "D" of driftwood. Aim it upwards towards the surface 2" right of the upper left corner. The idea is to make a high-speed lane away from the pump, that hits the far wall, deflects towards the corner, loses much of it's energy there in muddled turbulance, and returns towards the pump in an anti-clockwise rotation. Meanwhile, the 40 pct of the tank that is right of the WMD's output flow. and out of the return path, should be relatively calm, although you may need to add some structure to help wall it off ... a stone wall, a dense wall of plants, etc. This should give you a good diversity of velocity zones, a la Todd Crail, so that your various kinds of fish can find whatever suits them best.

Normally if the objective is purely to move water in the tank (i.e., not for filtration, and no water lifting or transmission through pipes), the old recommendation for a WMD would be a powerhead and the new recommendation would be a "propeller" design, such as the koralia. The new propeller units move more water at less wattage (and presumably less heat) than traditional powerheads. The propeller units also push a very broad, more gentle mass of water. But in your particular case, an outflow that is strongly directional and can be aimed might be an advantage. Probably depends on how fast you want your fastest water to be, and how much structure you're willing to have. If you had an old mag-type inline pump it might be worth trying, just because they're so strongly directional, but it would not be cost-effective to buy one new for this.

I just bought several Perfect JVP-201 dual propeller units, which are fairly new on the market. They remind me of the back-end of an F-15 jet. (Visually. Sonically, happily not.) The online vendor(*) I purchased from recommends them highly (well DUH.). My first one has only been in the water for 30 hours so I can't say how reliable they will be. Rated at 1585 gph (12 watts) and clearly are moving much more water than the MaxiJet-1200 that was in there before. Under $20 each. The tank is cycling with no fish in it yet, so I also can't tell you how happy the fish are. But I'm pretty happy.

(* anybody who wants the vendor's name can PM me. I've only done business with them once, but I got a FedEx shipping confirmation less than 2 hours after placing the order, which I thought was auspicious.)

Best of luck.

Edited by Doug_Dame, 24 February 2013 - 03:37 AM.


#9 Guest_Subrosa_*

Guest_Subrosa_*
  • Guests

Posted 24 February 2013 - 07:50 AM

I've just set up a 70 gal moving water "stream" tank, which has a bigger footprint than a 75. (Both are 48" long, but the std 75 is 18 inches wide, whereas my 70 is 24 inches wide. Which it makes up for by being less tall. AKA squatty.)

I agree with Subrosa that getting large areas of quiet water will be a challenge. With enough gph, in a normal configuration the water is going to tend to do the NASCAR thing, round and round and round and round. I'm not sure that a plant barrier would be sufficient to effectively wall off an area, or even stand up to a LOT of current.

Note that spraybars from external filters will primarily influence movement in the top waters. Won't do much life-style improvement for darters at the bottom.

But here's an idea ... untested ... that you might try. On your diagram, put the water-moving-device (WMD) on the lower wall just above the substrate, directly under the "D" of driftwood. Aim it upwards towards the surface 2" right of the upper left corner. The idea is to make a high-speed lane away from the pump, that hits the far wall, deflects towards the corner, loses much of it's energy there in muddled turbulance, and returns towards the pump in an anti-clockwise rotation. Meanwhile, the 40 pct of the tank that is right of the WMD's output flow. and out of the return path, should be relatively calm, although you may need to add some structure to help wall it off ... a stone wall, a dense wall of plants, etc. This should give you a good diversity of velocity zones, a la Todd Crail, so that your various kinds of fish can find whatever suits them best.

Normally if the objective is purely to move water in the tank (i.e., not for filtration, and no water lifting or transmission through pipes), the old recommendation for a WMD would be a powerhead and the new recommendation would be a "propeller" design, such as the koralia. The new propeller units move more water at less wattage (and presumably less heat) than traditional powerheads. The propeller units also push a very broad, more gentle mass of water. But in your particular case, an outflow that is strongly directional and can be aimed might be an advantage. Probably depends on how fast you want your fastest water to be, and how much structure you're willing to have. If you had an old mag-type inline pump it might be worth trying, just because they're so strongly directional, but it would not be cost-effective to buy one new for this.

I just bought several Perfect JVP-201 dual propeller units, which are fairly new on the market. They remind me of the back-end of an F-15 jet. (Visually. Sonically, happily not.) The online vendor(*) I purchased from recommends them highly (well DUH.). My first one has only been in the water for 30 hours so I can't say how reliable they will be. Rated at 1585 gph (12 watts) and clearly are moving much more water than the MaxiJet-1200 that was in there before. Under $20 each. The tank is cycling with no fish in it yet, so I also can't tell you how happy the fish are. But I'm pretty happy.

(* anybody who wants the vendor's name can PM me. I've only done business with them once, but I got a FedEx shipping confirmation less than 2 hours after placing the order, which I thought was auspicious.)

Best of luck.

Were you running the MJ 1200 in regular mode or in circulation mode? Newer MJs come ready to run both ways, and a 1200 set up for circulation moves about 1600 gph itself.

#10 Guest_Subrosa_*

Guest_Subrosa_*
  • Guests

Posted 24 February 2013 - 07:53 AM

Would you suggest two koralia type powerheads then, as opposed to one that would require a spray bar?

Koralia style are definitely the way to go for many reasons. They use less power moving more water which means less heat transfer into the tank. Also the pattern of flow is more diffuse which might work well with your plan of having a large slack area. The new Marineland MaxiJets that come with the parts to convert them work well too, but the flow is more directed than with a Koralia style unit.

#11 Guest_jakemyster44_*

Guest_jakemyster44_*
  • Guests

Posted 24 February 2013 - 01:43 PM

I think I'll try and get two koralia type powerheads and position them against the far left wall. Ill test them out and see if it will be possible to wall off an area for slack water species. I fear I may find that I sm trying to squeeze too large a section of stream into a 4' aquarium haha. If it won't work as planned, I will stick to more current loving species. Either way it should be a nice setup, I'd just love to be able to keep the additional species that a slack water area would make possible.
Doug: Your 70g seems to have a great layout for a stream style tank. I'd like to see pictures once you add the fish.
Subrosa: I'm really hoping that the wider, more diffuse flow of the koralia powerheaads will make the slack water area possible. I plan to add a few large rocks, as well as many tall plants and driftwood to stop the flow.

#12 Guest_Doug_Dame_*

Guest_Doug_Dame_*
  • Guests

Posted 24 February 2013 - 04:10 PM

Were you running the MJ 1200 in regular mode or in circulation mode? Newer MJs come ready to run both ways, and a 1200 set up for circulation moves about 1600 gph itself.

My MJ-1200 was "new in the box" but I've had it a while, it must be the older model. Doesn't explictly say anything about choices for circulation mode, only connect to UGF or not. Box says "Measured Flow 295 gph."

#13 Guest_Subrosa_*

Guest_Subrosa_*
  • Guests

Posted 24 February 2013 - 04:14 PM

My MJ-1200 was "new in the box" but I've had it a while, it must be the older model. Doesn't explictly say anything about choices for circulation mode, only connect to UGF or not. Box says "Measured Flow 295 gph."

Put a mod kit on it, and it will move 2000 gph plus at approximately the same power draw!

#14 Guest_scott361_*

Guest_scott361_*
  • Guests

Posted 24 February 2013 - 04:50 PM

I haven't posted for a very long time either.
So...
Hi, again! :biggrin:

Your plan sounds very similar to how I set up and for the same reasons.


Posted Image
IMG_0025_1 by scott361, on Flickr

It was to provide a fast current play area for those that liked it and a slack area for the others. As it's been going for around ten years, I think that its doing well.
The Mountain redbelly dace have even been breeding, although the Blackbandeds have eaten more than I'm happy with! I found my paperwork a while back and I think that they are over four years old now.
If you look under some of my old postings, or link to my Flickr pages, I gave a lot of detail on the design and inspirations.
(I'm trying to improve my photos, but I can't ever get Photoshop to load and haven't ever used it. So, they are what they are!)
I have one large powerhead on the left side that is linked through a buried pvc line to my sponge filter. It was based on Todd Crails 'Deep sand beds' and the hillstream loach filtration. http://www.loaches.c...runs-through-it

Like I said, it has been running for at least ten years with very minimal care!
I think that it's a very good system and provides areas for multiple needs of the fish.

I haven't posted in so long, I almost forgot how to do this! :tongue:

#15 Michael Wolfe

Michael Wolfe
  • Board of Directors
  • North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 24 February 2013 - 05:05 PM

Very nice scott. We all get so excited about new stuff sometimes... it is nice to see a well established tank that has been going strong for a while... low water level in that 100 is keeping your dace from jumping out... and they are breed, that is excellent husbandry...

...and now we have a ready answer to folks that ask the quesiton... "what minnows can I keep with my Enneacanthus?"
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

#16 Guest_jakemyster44_*

Guest_jakemyster44_*
  • Guests

Posted 26 February 2013 - 05:03 PM

Scott, your tank looks great! I was planning on keeping the water level a few inches below the top of my aquarium, only not for dace, but to provide an additional angle to view the fish from.

After doing some research on black/tufbifex worms, I wanted to ask if you thought it would be possible to maintain a colony for a month or so in the aquarium substrate? Again, its 3" of kitty litter, topped with 3/4" of sand. I would plan to maintain a separate tank with a permanent colony, and resupply the colony in with the fish when necessary. Also, after reading through Todd Crail's article regarding a "living substrate", does anyone have other recommendations for species to add? What about daphnia?

#17 Guest_scott361_*

Guest_scott361_*
  • Guests

Posted 27 February 2013 - 12:04 AM

Thanks for the complements!

Both, the pond mud/clay base and the sand topping average three inches deep, each. With a pretty thick layer of organic material sandwiched between them.
I took the name "Deep sand bed" to heart! I wanted to go with even deeper sand, but I ran out and the river where I got it was a 200 (something) mile round trip.
The ponds are just out back in various pastures.
(My planned 210 will be along the same lines and all the substrate will be sized up accordingly.) Even my 1000 gallon Poly Tank is setup the same way.
The water rises another foot(+-)(it tends to fluctuate) and the rest is the land area with mosses and plants. All done by choice, although I really would like deeper water.
None of the dace have ever really been jumpers that I've seen. (My last jumper was a black arowana (Osteoglossum ferreirai) thirty years ago.
Came home from school and found him stuck to the wall! I learned my lesson then!)
This was planned for the Enneacanthus from the beginning. Darters and dace, etc, came several years later.
I just got a larger powerhead to make them happy.

I have large numbers of tubificid worms thriving, both, in the thicker planted area and in the screened off filter intake area, ie: quasi-refugium.
I haven't added any for, at least four or five years. Now these came from one of my own ponds and might be different than purchased ones. Mine don't
live in filth and leaches like those seem to. Eccccckk! (Just from what I've seen and read!)
I used to spend hours digging though the mud and filtering out the worms through nets. I think that the Enneacanthus are preying on them more that the dace did.
I haven't bothered with that for a long time. I still spend time collecting large amounts of daphnia and cyclops, etc.
I used to have some kind of tiny clams, as well. Not sure what they were or if I still have 'em. I do know where they came from and might do a resupply
when the water levels drop enough. My substrate was alive from the start.

Edited by scott361, 27 February 2013 - 12:16 AM.


#18 Guest_jakemyster44_*

Guest_jakemyster44_*
  • Guests

Posted 09 March 2013 - 09:23 PM

My 1300 gallon per hour (GPH) powerhead, the 2 for $25 I mentioned earlier, is very powerful.


Erica, is that two powerheads each rated at 1300 GPH or two powerheads with a combined rating of 1300 GPH?


I have large numbers of tubificid worms thriving, both, in the thicker planted area and in the screened off filter intake area, ie: quasi-refugium.


Scott, since I will not have a screened off intake area (as I will be using a canister filter) do you think just a heavily planted area (valisneria, hornwort, anacharis, etc.) will suffice as a "refuge" for any worms I add, allowing them to breed without being wiped out entirely?

#19 Guest_EricaWieser_*

Guest_EricaWieser_*
  • Guests

Posted 09 March 2013 - 10:58 PM

Erica, is that two powerheads each rated at 1300 GPH or two powerheads with a combined rating of 1300 GPH?

Each one is 1300 GPH. They were sold in pairs so I bought two. It was $25 for both including shipping. I have never tried putting them both into the same tank. Just one is enough to whip the water around almost too fast for fish to swim.

Edited by EricaWieser, 09 March 2013 - 11:00 PM.


#20 Guest_scott361_*

Guest_scott361_*
  • Guests

Posted 09 March 2013 - 11:02 PM

I couldn't say.
I tend to think that doing this in an unprotected area...well, between the cats and the darters, it's going to be a challenge!
They could try to multiply between rocks or logs, etc. I think that my populations built up in the protected area and moved out from there.

This is the area outside. a current photo from just a few minutes ago.
Dirty? Yes, but I don't care and the inhabitants seem to be just fine with it.

Posted Image
IMG_0016_1 by scott361, on Flickr


It catches a surprising amount of detrius before it ever gets to the sponge filter.
That is where I saw tons of worms. I haven't looked since Dec and I can't see that closely right now.
I'd have to find my reading glasses(no clue!) or take out my contacts to see with my naked eye.
(Aging is a pain!)
This is an older photo of the same area. A little closer, so you can see all the crannies and the roots working their way out. Kinda' like mangroves.
These are the aerial roots, I would think. This photo is from '09, but it all looks much the same. Those who think that sand compacts too much should take a look.
Seems just fine to me! :-

Posted Image
IMG_0037 by scott361, on Flickr

This is the simple sponge filter area. It is from '09, as well.
It does have new sponges now.
This was never meant to be a biofilter, ever!!
It was always just a pre-filter area to keep my impellers from clogging.
That area underneath was for the detritus to settle. That is where the first colonies of worms started to thrive!
(The whole thing actually was intended to be a hamburger mattenfilter and was modified from there.)
Recycle, cheap and sustainable were the buzzwords during this build!
You can see that my screen was just my old(never to be used again!) under gravel filters.
None of this is visible from the front, so it's a mess!

Posted Image
My version of a refugium/particulate filter by scott361, on Flickr

I don't know if that's helpful or too much of my rambling?
I do tend to go on when I get started! :rolleyes:

Scott




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users