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New 125 Semi River Biotope

Started by Guest_biggreenavalanche_* , Apr 08 2013 11:32 AM

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#1 Guest_biggreenavalanche_*

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 11:32 AM

Well, I finally started my 125 gallon river semi-biotope. This weekend I got the load bearing structure done on the stand, drilled three holes in the back of the tank for a "beananimal" overflow, installed the bulkheads, put the tank on the stand and filled it, and drank a few liquid refreshments. (filled it for an overnight leak test/stand test) By Wednesday I plan on having the river manifold built and installed and by next week I should have the glass I ordered in and installed for the interior "coast to coast" overflow. I will be finishing the stand in red oak furniture grade plywood and red oak trim ( to match existing cabinets ) and, if all goes well should start cycling the tank by mid to end of April. If somebody could tell me how to post pics from an Ipad I would be happy to post...

I have to build a sump and one question I have is this, is a 29 gallon tall a suitable selection for a sump ?

I will also be starting on a 3D background, we'll see how that comes out, LOL !

Another question I have I asked on the different forum but didn't get an answer...basically I plan on about an inch of clay based dirt overlayed by an inch to two inches of natural (from the river) gravel, sand, and boulders...Would this make a decent substrate ? I do plan on some native plants, just not a whole lot. I see a lot of refrences to "kitty litter", what is it's purpose and do I need to use it ?

I currently have a large piece of driftwood soaking...any advice on how long to soak ? It is soaking in a rain water tub...

My tenative species list is:
Orange spot sunfish
Blue spot sunfish
Rainbow Darter
Greenside Darter
Banded Darter
Blue Breast Darter (maybe)
Red Fin Shiner
Southern Redbelly Dace
Tadpole matdom (maybe)

Candy Darter (wish list)
Tangerine Darter (wish list)

Any further suggestions ?

The reason I'm calling this tank a "semi-biotope" is with the exception of the Blue Spotted Sunfish, and my two "wish list" fish, all the fish currently exist in Eagle Creek in southern Ohio. Will be making a collecting trip there in late May...should be a blast !

To date costs...
-Tank $125.00
-Wood $85.00
-PVC/Bulkhead $60.00
-Already had all the screws
n such to put the stand
together, so no cost...
-1 3/4 inch diamond hole
saw bit $16.00
-Liquid refreshment $15.00

-Still on the purchase list are two powerheads, a tank pump for the sump filter, lighting ( which I have not yet addressed, design wise), a power strip or box, and the "ingredients" for a decent 3D background...

Thoughts, comments, or recommendations are most welcome !

Thanks,

Rich

#2 Guest_FirstChAoS_*

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 11:42 AM

Isn't candy darter a protected species? Or is that just in Virginia (i only looked it up studying species for that trip, oooh pretty fish, darn endangered).

#3 Guest_Kanus_*

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 11:45 AM

Sounds good! Looking forward to seeing pics. I would advise caution with madtoms and darters though. It often doesn't end well for the darters, and I have given up on madtoms because even with decent sized shiners I always get to the point where a few start showing up with mysterious missing scales/scratches, and my stock slowly thins.

I'm not sure about tangerine darters, but I know candy darters are protected in VA and probably WV too (if they aren't they should be). There are a few very similar looking sspecies though, that would probably do better in this tank anyway (I believe variegate darters can be had in OH?)

#4 Michael Wolfe

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 12:13 PM

...basically I plan on about an inch of clay based dirt overlayed by an inch to two inches of natural (from the river) gravel, sand, and boulders...Would this make a decent substrate ? I do plan on some native plants, just not a whole lot. I see a lot of refrences to "kitty litter", what is it's purpose and do I need to use it ?

I currently have a large piece of driftwood soaking...any advice on how long to soak ? It is soaking in a rain water tub...


Yes, that base of "dirt" with sand/gravel over it will work great. I might suggest more of a two inch base with one inch of cap. The kitty litter will do the same thing as the soil substrate (provide nutrients to the plant life), although the soil will provide a more instant biological component to your filtration.

On the other topic, I soaked a piee for the better part of a year before it was water logged enough to sink on its own.
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

#5 Guest_biggreenavalanche_*

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 12:28 PM

FishAcHoS: Did not know the Candy was protected, my understanding is it is a "species of concern", anyway, it's just a wish, was not planning on collecting rather was hoping one of the on line suppliers had them...one of my favorites

Kanus: yup, Variegates are in Ohio...may wind up with a couple...do you think the tadpole matdom would be a hazard ? It is one of the smaller ones and I was kinda hoping to get a small cleaner...

Michael: Thanks for the feedback on substrate...so, a bit thicker on the soil end of things and about right on the top ? Thanks, I'll roll with that, also, sounds like I really don't need kitty litter...and, dang, didnt wanna hear that about the wood ! A whole year ? Hopefully mine will water log a bit quicker ! LOLOL !

Rich

#6 Guest_jblaylock_*

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 01:07 PM

I have a great idea for you!!!

Come to the KY Convention, you can get plenty of Variegates and most likely you can get an Elegant Madtom. It is one of the smallest madtoms, I have no problems with mine.

http://www.nanfa.org...tion/2013.shtml

#7 Guest_biggreenavalanche_*

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 01:44 PM

Jblaylock,

When is it ?...KY is a fairly long trip for me...I'm in NW Louisiana...I'm going to E Town area and Maysville area during the last week of May, my kid graduates and I'm also gonna see family...Hometown is about 16 hr drive from here...can make Memphis in about 6.5 hrs...

Rich

Edit: opened mouth before opening link ! lolol ! just opened the link and saw the dates...probably not gonna make it, wishes were horses and such...

Edited by biggreenavalanche, 08 April 2013 - 02:07 PM.

#8 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 07:05 PM

I see a lot of refrences to "kitty litter", what is it's purpose and do I need to use it ?

Kitty litter is an inexpensive and convenient way to get clay.
I use it because of what I read here: http://www.thekrib.c...rate-jamie.html from which I concluded that kitty litter is just one of a large number of substrates that work well at growing plants. Here is my list of easy plant substrates:
  • kitty litter (pure clay, with no clumping chemicals or fragrances added)
  • soil
  • Flourite®, EcoComplete® or any of the other specialty plant substrates designed for aquarium use
  • sand with root tabs or Jobes fetilizer sticks buried under it
Any and all of the above will grow plants well. Kitty litter is just a convenient and inexpensive member of that list. This pros and cons list might clarify why I chose kitty litter over the alternatives:
  • Kitty litter. Pro: $4 for 25 pounds. Comes in easy to transport bag. Available anywhere there's a Walmart or pet store. Does not need capping layer of gravel or sand. Does not require backyard (I live in an apartment). Con: Variable DH and pH, should test in a cup of your tap water before deciding is right for your tank.
  • Soil. Pro: Similarly inexpensive like kitty litter. Comes in easy to transport bag, or right from your backyard if you have one. Available anywhere there's a Walmart, a gardening store, or a back yard. Soil from outside comes with the beneficial bacteria that cycles a tank (but planted tanks bypass bacterial filtration anyway, check out Diana Walstad's quote from http://www.theaquari...ical_Filtration "Aquatic plants, then, are much more than ornaments or aquascaping tools. They remove ammonia from the water. Furthermore, they remove it within hours (Fig 1, Table 2). When setting up a planted tank, there is no need to wait 8 weeks to prevent ‘new tank syndrome’. (Nitrifying bacteria require several weeks to establish themselves in new tanks and make biological filtration fully functional.) Thus, I have several times set up a new tank with plants and fish all on the same day." ) Con: Needs a two inch capping layer of gravel or sand. If you buy your gravel from the pet store it can be $1 a gallon (ouch; a 55 gallon tank is like $60). If you buy your gravel from the hardware store/Walmart it's only like $3 for 50 pounds.
  • Flourite®, EcoComplete® or any of the other specialty plant substrates designed for aquarium use. Pro: DH and pH should be fairly unaltered by the substrate. Does not need capping layer. Readily available at most pet stores. Con: $1 a pound or more. For example a 55 gallon would take up to $100 to put a specialty substrate in. Ouch.
  • Sand with fertilizer tabs. Pro: Sand can be cheap from your local hardware store, and Jobes sticks are $1. Also some people like the look of sand more than other substrates. Con: Requires periodic fertilization (AKA work). A single grain of sand in between your algae scraper and your acrylic tank can make a big scratch (if you use a credit card to clean your tank I've found that you can avoid this problem).
There's no obligation to pick one substrate over the others. You can do whatever you like best. For me, I liked kitty litter best because it's a one stop shop. Dump in, done. You only need to know one thing about me to understand my fish keeping practices: I am lazy. I have plants because I do not like water changes, and plants reduce the frequency of those. I have kitty litter because it does not need fertilization. And it doesn't have to be thick with a thick capping layer (which I find ugly, but that's a personal preference thing) and it only cost $4 for all the substrate in my entire tank. So because kitty litter + plants = less frequent water changes, I did it. It's working out pretty well so far. Two years in and the only maintenance I've done for the substrate is that I recently added some $1 Jobes fertilizer sticks, 'cause why not. *shrugs* You'll see on the first link I posted that the CECs of kitty litter and of soil are much higher than Fluorite®, so after two years the kitty litter and soil are still kicking while the Fluorite® is starting to get irreversibly exhausted.

But yeah, you have many options for substrate. There is no wrong answer, and I'm not even saying that to be nice. Over time fish poop will build up in anything and turn it into good plant substrate. :D

Edited by EricaWieser, 08 April 2013 - 07:18 PM.

#9 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 07:29 PM

if all goes well should start cycling the tank by mid to end of April.
...
I have to build a sump and one question I have is this, is a 29 gallon tall a suitable selection for a sump ?

These two sentences are related. If you plant that 29 gallon tall, for example with our native ceratophyllum demersum, which can float around in a ball and doesn't need any substrate whatsoever, you can put fish in your tank same day.

How to connect your sump and main tank for $10 of pipe without having to drill anything: youtube.com/watch?v=65yVr7DiDls
See Table 2 of this link as to why plants mean you don't have to wait for a tank to cycle: http://www.theaquari...cal_Filtration That also explains why plants are way better than anything else you can put in a sump.
You'll need a light rich in red and blue light, which I explain here under the username of Okiimiru: http://www.ratemyfis.../topic5058.html
and here: http://forum.nanfa.o...in-55-gal-tank/

If all goes well the sump will look like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0swLeG-NsLg but with ceratophyllum demersum instead of chaetomorpha.

Even if you don't go the way of the planted sump, there's no reason to wait for a tank to cycle any more. API Quick Start is a bottle that contains all the beneficial bacteria you'd need to have a fully bacterially cycled tank on day 1. It's like $8.

Edited by EricaWieser, 08 April 2013 - 07:32 PM.

#10 Guest_harryknaub_*

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 08:43 PM

I got tired of waiting for my wood to get water logged, so I drilled a hole through a rock and screwed it to the wood.

Harry Knaub

#11 Guest_biggreenavalanche_*

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 07:30 AM

Erica,what a great explanation of substrate, importantly for me, very easy to understand, thank you...as far as planting, although I love the look of a well planted, aqua scraped tank, being somewhat lazy myself, and in trying to keep with my biotope, planting is gonna be some mosses and native hair grasses...plan on planting behind current breaks and letting "nature" take over...mosses will be aimed more at getting it started on the driftwood...I may plant a few more natives as I figure out my current flow...I plan on about an 8-10x turnover rate...I will definitely look for that API Quick cycle, thanks for the info...

Harry, if my big chunk of wood is not ready when I start putting everything in, that's exactly what I gonna do ! Thanks

Thanks to all for inputs/suggestions !

Rich

Edited by biggreenavalanche, 09 April 2013 - 07:32 AM.

#12 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 09:44 AM

If all goes well the sump will look like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0swLeG-NsLg but with ceratophyllum demersum instead of chaetomorpha.

Ah yes, I forgot to mention. Your sump could also look like this and be just as functional: http://showcase.aquatic-gardeners.org/
for example http://showcase.aqua...12/show377.html

#13 Guest_jblaylock_*

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 01:15 PM

Jblaylock,

When is it ?...KY is a fairly long trip for me...I'm in NW Louisiana...I'm going to E Town area and Maysville area during the last week of May, my kid graduates and I'm also gonna see family...Hometown is about 16 hr drive from here...can make Memphis in about 6.5 hrs...

Rich

Edit: opened mouth before opening link ! lolol ! just opened the link and saw the dates...probably not gonna make it, wishes were horses and such...


That's too bad. Should see some awesome fish.

#14 Guest_biggreenavalanche_*

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 06:25 PM

I know, right ?!

#15 Guest_biggreenavalanche_*

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 08:55 AM

Cannot seem to figure out how to post pics...oh well, the plumbing is done man ! yay...going this weekend to pick up the glass for the coast to coast overflow and for the sump...should be glued together by end of weekend...

#16 Guest_biggreenavalanche_*

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 08:57 AM

oh, also running over to Hobby Lobby to pick up materials for my 3D background...gonna put my GF artistic talents to work, we'll see how that comes out !

Also, If anybody has some good underwater shots of streambanks from the N. KY or S. OH area, could you post one or two of them here...still looking for that "looK" for my background...

Thanks...

rich

Edited by biggreenavalanche, 11 April 2013 - 09:00 AM.

#17 Guest_biggreenavalanche_*

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 11:20 AM

Pardon the order...finally figuring out how to post pics...my IPad would not recognize the attach file button, dunno why, had to use my work computer...

-Load bearing is all 2x6 and 2x4
--corner uprights are 2 2x6 with interior 2x4
--looking at the pic with the tank on the stand, the bottom will have plywood, sealed seams, and liquid rubber, should hold about 20 gallons in case of bad leak...
-no wobbles, sway, and, aside from the 2% grade on my carport floor, is level and square...

-next set of pics I'll show the rough plumbing, and the river manifold

-was really happy that I was able to drill the manifold holes without incident...used a 2x6, drilled the 2x6 with the pattern, put plummers putty between the board and glass, clamped, put duct tape on the underside, added water to the holes and drilled...no worries...

-tank is coming off the stand and stand is going to a friends to be "skinned" in oak

-tank will be getting a 3d treatment over the next week or two...will try to remember pics on that process

-slowly but surely taking shape...

-also had to include an unsolicited pic of the obligatory "liquid refreshment"... I know, wimp beer, but its good and crisp and was FREE ! Ha ! Cheers...Rich

#18 Michael Wolfe

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 11:57 AM

I've never drilled the glass before myself... so you used the 2x6 as like your guide... but when you say you filled the tank to the level of the holes... why is that? You are still drilling from the outside right? Describe more please... I like having drilled tanks, but have been hesitant to try.
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

#19 Guest_biggreenavalanche_*

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 12:40 PM

I've never drilled the glass before myself... so you used the 2x6 as like your guide... but when you say you filled the tank to the level of the holes... why is that? You are still drilling from the outside right? Describe more please... I like having drilled tanks, but have been hesitant to try.


Essentially I used a 2x6 with pre-drilled holes as a template...my bulk heads required a 1 3/4 inch hole to installed into...I pre-drilled the wood with 1 3/4 holes....I then used plummers putty as a water barrier between the wood and glass and clamped (carefully) the wood to the glass while the aquarium was on its side...then I put the diamond bit on the drill....next, since the glass and diamond bit have to be constantly lubricated, i filled the hole in the 2x6 with water, inserted the bit and started drilling...drilled on slow speed and do not press the drill down, the weight of the drill was sufficient to go through 3/8 inch glass...took about 3-4 minutes per hole...for added safety I put duct tape on the bottom side of the glass where I was drilling to keep the glass from falling and breaking something below (like the other side of the aquarium !)

The plummers putty, just ran a 1/4 inch bead around the hole that I'd drilled in the wood, the goal being to keep water in the hole to lube the bit while drilling...was not a perfect seal so I had a measuring cup of water handy and just made sure the hole had water in it...

Just for the record, this was my first drill on glass...was a bit nervous but figured WTF, I only had $125.00 in the tank...(as opposed to $500 or $600)it worked out well and I would not hesitate to do it again...of course my buddy, my mouth, peer pressure, and liquid refreshment all contributed to the "I got this" syndrome ! LMAO ! but all in all was alot less trouble than I expected...

Would recommend that prior to drilling you do a layout of plumming and double check with tape measure !

Make ABSOLUTLY CERTAIN the glass you're going to drill is not tempered !!!! There are ways to determine, I actually went to the manufacturer in my case...

hope this was a bit clearer than mud ?

Rich

#20 Michael Wolfe

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 12:48 PM

That was perfect Rich, thanks... sometimes I am a little too detailed, but you fulfilled my curiosity... now I understand where you were filling water and why... I had heard that before about the glass drills, but just didn't put it all together.
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin
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