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non-bait native aquarium illegal in NH


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#1 Guest_angus_*

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Posted 05 March 2007 - 09:08 PM

Page 16 of the 2006 NH Freshwater Fishing Digest contains the following text, printed in bold type:

"No person shall have live fish in their possession when leaving the freshwaters of the state, except those species allowed to be possessed and used as live fish for bait or the person is participating in a permitted fishing tournament."

The defined list of baitfish species from page 14-15 is:
  • rainbow smelt (Osmerus mordax)
  • longnose dace (Rhinichthys cataractae)
  • blacknose dace (Rhinichthys atratulus)
  • northern redbelly dace (Phoxinus eos)
  • lake chub (Couesius plumbeus)
  • creek chub (Semotiliusatromaculatus)
  • fallfish (Semotilius corporalis)
  • golden shiner (Notemigonus crysoleucas)
  • common shiner (Luxilus cornutus)
  • emerald shiner (Notropis atherinoides)
  • bridle shiner (Notropisbifrenatus)
  • spottail shiner (Notropis hudsonius)
  • silvery minnow Hybognathus nuchalis)
  • creek chubsucker (Erimyzon oblongus)
  • longnose sucker (Catostomus catostomus)
  • white sucker (Catostomus commersoni)
  • killifish/tomcod (Fundulus sp.)
I don't see much room for interpretation here. Am I missing something?
If I'm gonna follow NH state law, my aquarium will be limited to "bait", lol.

Edit 3/6: To clarify, I'm talking about filling an aquarium by collecting your own.

#2 Guest_viridari_*

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Posted 05 March 2007 - 09:10 PM

Hmmm so much for "live free or die". That sounds pretty draconian.

#3 Guest_Carl_*

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Posted 05 March 2007 - 10:13 PM

You may try contacting the division of wildlife there may be a scientific permit available or something.

#4 Guest_edbihary_*

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Posted 05 March 2007 - 10:32 PM

"No person shall have live fish in their possession when leaving the freshwaters of the state, except those species allowed to be possessed and used as live fish for bait or the person is participating in a permitted fishing tournament."

As ridiculous as this rule sounds, it does not prohibit a non-bait native aquarium. You just can't have the fish "in their possession when leaving the freshwaters of the state". You CAN have the fish in your possession at other times, besides when you are "leaving the freshwaters of the state". Your home is not "when leaving the freshwaters of the state". So you can have the fish in your possession in your home. How you get them to your home is another matter. Buy them, trade for them, beg for them, breed them, or fish for them in another state. All of these options still remain open to you, based solely on this one citation that you have provided.

This rule would seem to prohibit taking a live fish home to cook it, too. You would have to kill it at the stream. Not the freshest eating.

Just the same, you overreact when you suggest that your aquarium is illegal. It is not. This just restricts the source of fish for your aquarium.

#5 Guest_teleost_*

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Posted 05 March 2007 - 11:50 PM

As ridiculous as this rule sounds, it does not prohibit a non-bait native aquarium. You just can't have the fish "in their possession when leaving the freshwaters of the state". You CAN have the fish in your possession at other times, besides when you are "leaving the freshwaters of the state". Your home is not "when leaving the freshwaters of the state". So you can have the fish in your possession in your home. How you get them to your home is another matter. Buy them, trade for them, beg for them, breed them, or fish for them in another state. All of these options still remain open to you, based solely on this one citation that you have provided.

This rule would seem to prohibit taking a live fish home to cook it, too. You would have to kill it at the stream. Not the freshest eating.

Just the same, you overreact when you suggest that your aquarium is illegal. It is not. This just restricts the source of fish for your aquarium.


I read the law the same way Ed. I'm sure folks around here will be sympathetic if they know your state law. Make sure and remind folks of this when you ask for fish and get a receipt if you can.

#6 Guest_TurtleLover_*

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Posted 06 March 2007 - 12:38 AM

I think this law was vaguely written, but written for a reason. They don't want you taking live fish from a stream possibly because they don't want people transferring live fish from one body of water to another. What we call "bucket biologist" mentality: This lake has nice sized (whatever species), the lake by my house doesn't. I'll just catch a few, take them to the lake closer to home and toss them in and hopefully get a good population going to fish closer to home.
Sound stupid? Yeah. Do people actually do it? Unfortunately, it does happen. That's where some invasive, nonnative species get there start some where new. No, it doesn't make for the freshest dinner when you're catching it, but to avoid legalities follow the law. Take a cooler of ice and toss your catch in there to keep it as fresh as possible till you fry it up.
If you want to keep other species as fish, obtain them in a way suggested above. Receipts and paper trails where you got them is always good just in case you are ever questioned by authorities where you got them from.

#7 Guest_angus_*

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Posted 06 March 2007 - 07:20 AM

As ridiculous as this rule sounds...

Thanks Ed, I understand what the regulation means. I was most definitely writing from the point of view of collecting, but neglected to mention that (my error). I am eagerly awaiting ice-melt to start my 1st season of fish-finding...I have no intention of buying any.

My point is, with all the talk about bass, and seines, and outings...some states don't allow it. Since I've never researched this before (never had a reason to) I was surprised to learn this about my home state. Put a damper on my un-started new hobby! Wow, if I think of all the hundreds of fish I took home in buckets as a child...

Anyway, sunny in a bucket = illegal. "No Bluegill for you!"

#8 Guest_nativecajun_*

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Posted 06 March 2007 - 07:33 AM

How many on this site disregard this type of law and just watch your back. :twisted: Oh I forget no one will say somthing like that in an open forum. Again I think this law was written for one intent that turtlelover stated. To not introduce a species where it otherwise does not exist. And by the way I will not say if I disregard laws like this and watch my back either. :roll:

#9 Guest_drewish_*

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Posted 06 March 2007 - 11:33 AM

How many on this site disregard this type of law and just watch your back. :twisted: Oh I forget no one will say somthing like that in an open forum. Again I think this law was written for one intent that turtlelover stated. To not introduce a species where it otherwise does not exist. And by the way I will not say if I disregard laws like this and watch my back either. :roll:


I hope you get busted. I will say that on an open forum. There are ways of legally obtaining fish so why break the law. Lawmakers are not going to make/change laws for the handful of people in each state that want to take fish home for their aquarium. It isn't worth their time and a waste of the general population's tax money.

#10 Guest_nativecajun_*

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Posted 06 March 2007 - 12:27 PM

"I hope you get busted".

Be nice now. Is that asking too much? You cannot seem to differentiat between the spirit of a law and the letter of the law. For your sake I will ask a warden when I see one. I will ask him if he would fine a person for taking a baby sunfish home caught by a dip net. A fish that has no limit to its size or number limit in Tennessee on what you can bring home as a fisherman. I do not even have to guess at his answer. He would say, be my guest. But some cannot seem to understand that or just do not want to. Some just cannot seem to lighten up.

#11 Guest_gerald_*

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Posted 06 March 2007 - 01:10 PM

The NH law is obviously intended to keep people from spreading nuisance fish and perhaps diseases. i doubt the law's sponsors or state legislators ever considered the effect on educational or hobbyist aquarium uses, as Drewish points out we're just a handful among the vast numbers of sport fishing folks. But law enforcement people do have some discretionary authority, and mostly theyre focused on the real intent of the law, to protect the resource and the users. So most of the time if you just explain what youre doing thyell say OK thats cool, even though technically there may be a law against it, not intended for this purpose. For example my state and others define all Centrarchidae and Percidae as game fish, which can only legally be taken by hook and line. But no angler or wildlife agent ive ever met considers Enneacanthus or Etheostoma as game fish, and ive often taken these genera with nets. If some bureaucrat decided he wanted to punish Gerald i suppose he could use the gamefish definition to prosecute me, but keeping bluespotted sunfish and darters out of home & school aquariums is NOT the intent of the law and i suspect the case would get thrown out as "frivolous". Anyway nativecajun as a nanfa member i trust that you'll be a responsible collector, sensible when interpreting the spirit & intent of your state's fishing regs, and honest when questioned by wildlife agents. i DO NOT hope you get busted -- that would spoil things for all of us if wildlife agencies start feeling that personal aquarium collectors (and NANFA by association) are a threat to the resource and must be watched and regulated.

BTW viridari -- actually that law does fit quite nicely with the NH state motto:
"live free" (= release it) "or die" (kill it before taking away) ;>)

Gerald


I hope you get busted. I will say that on an open forum. There are ways of legally obtaining fish so why break the law. Lawmakers are not going to make/change laws for the handful of people in each state that want to take fish home for their aquarium. It isn't worth their time and a waste of the general population's tax money.



#12 Guest_drewish_*

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Posted 06 March 2007 - 01:12 PM

For every thread you bring this up in, I will argue against it. FWIW, I was told by the son of a police officer that game wardens in the state of VA will ticket you and more for having illegal fish. They take their job seriously. This may not be the case in all states.

We are promoting the legal taking of fish, no if's, and's, or but's. I can't do that if I don't do it myself and that is why I make it a practice to ensure all the fish in my fish room are legally obtained.

#13 Guest_teleost_*

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Posted 06 March 2007 - 01:14 PM

"I hope you get busted".

Be nice now. Is that asking too much? You cannot seem to differentiat between the spirit of a law and the letter of the law. For your sake I will ask a warden when I see one. I will ask him if he would fine a person for taking a baby sunfish home. A fish that has no limit to its size or number limit in Tennessee on what you can bring home as a fisherman. I am willing to bet he would say, be my guest. But some cannot seem to understand that or just do not want to. If I get busted or not, I loose no sleep what so ever in what I do. I hope when I see you we can joke because you sure cannot seem to on this site.



Not trying to pile on here nativec but...The law is the law and this is a public forum. When going before the judge do you think he'll accept the argument "your honor, I know what the law SAYS but I was following the spirt of the law not the letter of the law"

First two lines in the NANFA code of ethics.....

NANFA Members who collect native fishes from the wild and maintain them in private aquaria are encouraged to comply with the following Code of Ethics:

* It is the responsibility of NANFA members to acquaint themselves with, and abide by, the collecting, fishing and fish transfer regulations of each Country, State or Province in which they collect, transfer, or ship fish.

* Collecting must be done in an environmentally sound and responsible manner, which includes, but is not limited to: a) not removing numbers of fishes beyond that which one requires or is capable of sustaining; b) taking all reasonable actions to prevent negative impacts on the habitat in which one collects; c) respecting private property rights; and d) complying with any law-enforcement, natural-resource, or other conservation officer or agent encountered in the field.



#14 Guest_teleost_*

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Posted 06 March 2007 - 01:26 PM

I like the way you think Gerald....It's about time a lawyer steps in on this...

I would love nothing more than to have some resolution on the specifics of what we do from a legal stand point. I would like to change my tune on these matters.....Is there a lawyer in the house?

I'll not speak for Drewish but I'm pretty sure he doesn't want the forum to look like many of the dark corners of the internet where people openly discuss their willingness to violate the law. I know I would like the forum to represent NANFA members as law abiding citizens.

#15 Guest_nativecajun_*

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Posted 06 March 2007 - 01:27 PM

Not trying to pile on here nativec but...The law is the law and this is a public forum. When going before the judge do you think he'll accept the argument "your honor, I know what the law SAYS but I was following the spirt of the law not the letter of the law"

First two lines in the NANFA code of ethics.....


Like I said you cannot seem to lighten up. First of all I will never have to go before a Judge for this matter. Second I do think he would side with me if I did. Plain and simple. The guy next to me can take a thousand home in a day and you are going to tell me a Judge or Warden would come down hard on me for having one alive in a bucket caught with a net. I know the Judge personaly in my little town. I do not even have to ask what he would rule because I have seen him in action. He has the power and wisdom to differenciate between the spirit of a law and the letter of the law, which you do not. He would laugh and he would make the audience laugh. And he would tell me to go home and enjoy my little fish. But you win I loose because the law is the law. But personaly I do not care what you think nor do I give a rip. Despite you saying you are not trying to pile it on, your are, you always do, and you will never stop. So personaly I do not like the way you act in the least.

And if you think I am kidding about that Judge I am not. They recently enacted a law in Tennessee that your vehicle has to pass an emmisions test every year before you can renew your tags. A person was before him that did not comply with that law and was citated. He told that person to go home. He said when they start making the truckers pass those same emmisions tests, truckers that are the main ones that emit the tons of emmisions that are the real cause of the problem then he would fine him. He did not fine him because he could differenciate the spirit of a law and the letter of a law. You just want to show that you can be a hard whatever. And when some disagree with you you have the power to pluck their quote and have done it. And not only that you continue non stop by adding insult to injury to insult on the larger injury. Now I am in some dark corner of the net representing the dark side of the unlawful. How long does it take you to think up all this gargabe anyway.

#16 Guest_drewish_*

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Posted 06 March 2007 - 01:40 PM

And now that we have had our daily disagreement regarding laws...

angus, you can still have a nice tank with those "baitfish".

You can't stop nature if they accidentally breed in your tank.

(warning: any further derail will be deleted)

#17 Guest_nativecajun_*

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Posted 06 March 2007 - 01:46 PM

And angus if you want some type of fish I already gave you my personal e-mail. Do not be afraid to ask. I will obtain, catch, trade, buy, what ever it is you want. Sorry you had to learn how some act on this forum on your thread though. And you can lay your next paycheck that I will stand behind my word and ask a warden and I will post his answer on the dark side of the net representing the unlawful dark skum of the earth. What a joke. This gets better than the funny papers.

#18 Guest_nativecajun_*

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Posted 06 March 2007 - 05:48 PM

I was contacted by a admin. I gave him permission to remove my posts here. I in no way want to give the impression to just blatenly disobey the law. I was just trying to explain my view of why these laws were written. I appologize for my abruptness but as I explained to the Admin. he said I was acting like I was attacked when I was not. But "I hope you get busted" I felt was a direct attack no matter how you look at it. I am a very sensitive person and go on the defensive very easily.

My appologies to all.

Daniel J. Benoit

#19 Guest_ashtonmj_*

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Posted 06 March 2007 - 07:32 PM

I have been avoiding even acknowleding this thread all day today but it has been really bothering me. I have quite a bit of experience on a much larger fishing related message board and any topics of politics and law are strictly forbiden and THIS thread is exactly why. On that website, and on this, these topics have no place. This board is in its infancy and at least three seperate threads that have turned into personal views on law have come up. It is dangerous, threatens membership, and has no relavence. This is a message board for native fish of North America not a policy advocation group. Yes, there are sections that link you to various state regulations, but they are nothing more then that. They are not up for "well this is how I do it". If you follow your own rules then fine, but it has no place being discussed here. Whether you like it or agree there are regulations each state has. Too many people here depend on responsible working relationships with state agencies and indirectly represent NANFA and fish collectors as a whole. As far as I know, no one here is in the position to have the authority to make an interpetation of the law in one state let alone all 50. Everything so far has essentially been speculation. I myself even speculated incorrectly and looking back I should have never even tried to because it is not my place nor am I qualifed to. I encourage anyone who further has questions about their laws and regulations to do the simplest thing possible. Contact your state natural resources agency. Go to the source instead of asking the wrong people in the wrong place. For everyones sake I hope this is the be all end all for matters that should discussed elsewhere.

#20 Guest_Skipjack_*

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Posted 06 March 2007 - 07:42 PM

Thanks Matt,
Next time we have this issue, we can just copy and paste! :smile:




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