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Shiners and Chub

Started by Guest_featherbrain_* , May 21 2013 05:21 PM

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16 replies to this topic

#1 Guest_featherbrain_*

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 05:21 PM

I'm brand new to native fish, my thing is birds, but I'm beginning to really enjoy fish! I'm currently in Gatlinburg, TN working on bird research, but have free afternoons so today I went down and snorkeled for a bit in the Little Pigeon River. I have to admit, identifying fish is a lot tougher than I originally thought! I have attached some images of some fish that I'm not sure on.
The first one I believe is just a young River Chub.
The second one I think are more of the same, but I'm not sure about the one in the lower left.
The third one I think is more River Chubs, but I believe the ones with the bright yellow stripes might be Saffron Shiners (that's the closest thing I can come up with, though they don't seem nearly as bright as illustrated in my Peterson's)
The fourth and fifth I also believe to be River Chubs, but am wanting to double check.

Any ID tips you guys can give me would be really appreciated. I like knowing why things are what they are so that next time I see them I can more confidently identify them. Thank you so much!

Attached Files

Edit1.JPG 131.49KB 0 downloads
Edit2.JPG 111.23KB 1 downloads
Edit3.JPG 130.33KB 1 downloads
Edit4.JPG 171.14KB 1 downloads
Edit5.JPG 157.66KB 1 downloads

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#2 Guest_daveneely_*

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 05:40 PM

A couple hints... do the scales on the last fish seem perhaps slightly larger than on the chub-like things in the previous four? You might want to count them (for convenience sake, just do the mid-lateral row on the side where the lateral line should be -- you might be off one or two, since you can't see pores or where the bony part of the hypural plate ends, but it's good enough for this purpose). On those chub-like fish in the first four, do the mouths all look the same? (orientation, size, etc.)? Are the corners of the lips slightly fleshy and perhaps almost white?

As for your saffrons, is there anything else in the drainage that you might easily confuse with a saffron? Hmm, I wonder where could I find a good distributional map? NatureServe? No, I said <good> distributional map... You do know that the Fishes of Tennessee is available online for free, from the UT Press, yes? Have you availed yourself of this resource?

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#3 Guest_daveneely_*

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 05:45 PM

...and I almost forgot -- I would be totally remiss if I didn't say "Dang nice photos!"

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#4 Michael Wolfe

Board of Directors

North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 21 May 2013 - 06:06 PM

I think Dave is hinting that the first couple might be more stoneroller than chub...
third one is definitely a Notropis shiners of some sort... range map is the right answer
fourth one looks to be a different fish form the others but it may just be the angle
last one is your Nocomis chub... again, check the range map to be sure

Fishes of TN is available here. http://www.newfoundp...du/pubs/fishes/

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

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#5 Guest_featherbrain_*

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 07:52 PM

Thanks for the help! I think I've sorted some things out, but am still quite confused. I think a majority of the fish that I thought were River Chubs are actually Largescale Stonerollers? I'm not entirely sure that they aren't Longnose Dace though.
I'm also thinking that the fish in the lower left of the second picture is a juvenile River Chub.
As for the shiners, I can't seem to find anything that fits better than Saffron Shiner, and I'm not really sure what you were alluding to with your range map comment. Are you saying Peterson's doesn't have very accurate range maps?
Fourth one I'm still not sure, perhaps Largescale Stoneroller?
And the last one I came up with 40 lateral scales which seems to agree with River Chub.

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#6 Michael Wolfe

Board of Directors

North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 21 May 2013 - 08:05 PM

I'm not really sure either...Dave is just telling us to work harder... and I have been leaving that part to you so far :smile2:

... glad that you have a Peterson's... do you have the first edition (green cover) or second (white cover)... both are good and mostly accurate. All I was saying is that Dave is right that if you know where you were standing, then it is easier to come up with a limited number of options. And knowing Dave, it is even possible that you are right about the saffron's and he just wanted you to look them up and convince yourself... but again, I have not done that work with you, yet. But considering that you are in Ringgold, GA and I am the Georgia Regional Rep, I feel compelled to engage in this project with you!

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

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#7 Guest_daveneely_*

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 09:32 PM

I'm not entirely sure that they aren't Longnose Dace though.

Since you have your Peterson's guide handy, why would they NOT be longnose dace?

I'm also thinking that the fish in the lower left of the second picture is a juvenile River Chub.

Why?

As for the shiners, I can't seem to find anything that fits better than Saffron Shiner, and I'm not really sure what you were alluding to with your range map comment. Are you saying Peterson's doesn't have very accurate range maps?

I'm saying that in this case, a map of Tennessee with detailed depiction of streams and rivers and verified locality dots might be more useful than the big fuschia blobs in Peterson's. They each have their place...

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#8 Guest_IsaacSzabo_*

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 12:37 AM

Sorry about going off topic, but I must say that I always enjoy your ID clues, Dave. I for one would much rather learn how to ID a fish than just be told what it is. It's more rewarding when you do some of the work yourself. Plus, you're much more likely to actually learn something and remember it in the future that way.

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#9 Guest_daveneely_*

Guests

Posted 22 May 2013 - 08:13 AM

Thanks, Isaac. Sorry I missed you the other week; I got Casper's voicemail late that night and have had a crazy busy couple of weeks.

Crowdsourcing IDs on an open forum is always kind of a risky proposition. You might have five people tell you "that's a fathead minnow" and two others say "no, it's a slim minnow," but if you don't know what criteria they used to base their call on, you haven't really gained any useful information. Even with that, everybody makes mistakes... and focusing on the characters rather than on an authoritative "That is clearly 'Codoma'" lets everybody involved learn something.

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#10 Guest_Casper_*

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 09:12 AM

Feather ( & future Scale ) Brain...
I have followed this lesson with interest.
Being you are in Gatinburg, TN but note Ringgold, GA as your home you may have the opportunity to step in the water and seine some of these. Hint, 2 of them could be in your hand while standing in South Chickamauga Creek soon enough. This Saturday we will be pulling fish in Audubon Acres from 2 til 4. You could come sooner though, just email me for details. prizma@aol.com We will be setting up streamside photo tanks, seining, dipnetting but snorkeling in South Chick is a big murky maybe, but have your mask handy just in case.
On June 8th, a Saturday, is TN's Free Fishing Day and NANFA members are invited to attend a creekside picnic and fishy show and tell. Sunday we will likely go snorkeling somewhere clear, Conasauga or Hiwassee most likely. You will see many fish species on either day.

Here is a forum link to the Free Fishing Day Weekend.

http://forum.nanfa.o...ond-pool-party/

Note the post begins in 2012 but i have updated it toward the end.

I suspect you will be more smarter, more suprised and amazed and more bewildered by the end of either session.

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#11 Guest_featherbrain_*

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 03:49 PM

Thanks Casper, I just sent you an email

Dave, having lots of experience with helping new bird watchers, I really appreciate your help. It can be tempting at times just to give the answer and list a few reasons why, but it is so much better for the asker to research things out for himself.

I've been going back and forth between Longnose Dace and Largescale Stoneroller, but I'm thinking that they are stonerollers because of the lack of a spot at the base of the caudal fin on all of the individuals, plus the mouth shape doesn't seem right (I'm having trouble putting the exact reason into words, Longnose Dace seem to have a really long snout that projects beyond the lower jaw versus stonerollers having the upper jaw curve onto the lower jaw). As for the fish in the lower left of the second picture, I don't remember why I decided it looked like a young river chub. I posted that late last night after a long day of field work. :blink:

What I'm having trouble deciding is whether it's even a different species or just an unusually dark individual.

I am now quite confident that the fourth one is a Largescale Stoneroller, it definitely has that nice stoneroller mouth (that I assume is more distinct since it is an older individual). With this and all of the above I am going with Largescale simply because of range. The fish of TN doesn't have the species split yet so going by that reference it would be Central Stoneroller.
I am also becoming quite confident with Saffron Shiner. They all have darkly outlined scales extending below the lateral line, and the dark stripe on the rear half of the side. The two on the left have a dark scapular bar, but the individual on the right (male?) seems to be lacking this which is really confusing me since everything else lines up nicely.
Thanks again for all the help! I've learned a lot in the past 24 hrs!

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#12 Guest_gerald_*

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 04:48 PM

The "Hydrophlox" shiners (saffron, tennessee, redlip, greenhead, yellowfin, rainbow, rough) when breeding contract their melanophores, so all their dark pigment disappears and they seem to glow. Thus the lack of dark scapular bar.

I am also becoming quite confident with Saffron Shiner. They all have darkly outlined scales extending below the lateral line, and the dark stripe on the rear half of the side. The two on the left have a dark scapular bar, but the individual on the right (male?) seems to be lacking this which is really confusing me since everything else lines up nicely.

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#13 Guest_IsaacSzabo_*

Guests

Posted 22 May 2013 - 06:57 PM

No problem, Dave. You didn't miss much anyway. The water ended up being too high and cloudy to do much in that area that day. I moved on to central AL where the conditions were a little better.

Featherbrain, I think you are on the right track with all of your IDs. I think 1, 2, and 4 are stonerollers. Longnose dace would have different coloration (dark on top with salt and pepper spots), smaller scales, and, like you say, a different looking snout/mouth.

I think you are right that the fish in the lower left of the 2nd photo is not a stoneroller, but I can't see it well enough to say for sure what it is. Young chubs do tend to have a bold lateral stripe, though.

I think you are right about Saffrons for the 3rd photo. Tennesee shiners and Rosyface shiners seem to be the similar possibilities, but, like you say, the dark scapular bar and darkly outlined scales below the lateral line should rule those out.

River chub seems right for the last one.

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#14 Guest_featherbrain_*

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 07:01 PM

Thanks, Issac. And just to make sure I'm on the right track, are the four other fish in the third photo (three shiners on top) also stonerollers?

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#15 Guest_Skipjack_*

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 07:23 PM

As a shout out to Dave, I like your style of helping people help themselves at identification. If I follow someone on a trip, I don't know where the hell I am. If I find the destination myself, totally different story.

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#16 Guest_daveneely_*

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 08:40 PM

I've been going back and forth between Longnose Dace and Largescale Stoneroller, but I'm thinking that they are stonerollers because of the lack of a spot at the base of the caudal fin on all of the individuals, plus the mouth shape doesn't seem right (I'm having trouble putting the exact reason into words, Longnose Dace seem to have a really long snout that projects beyond the lower jaw versus stonerollers having the upper jaw curve onto the lower jaw). As for the fish in the lower left of the second picture, I don't remember why I decided it looked like a young river chub. I posted that late last night after a long day of field work. What I'm having trouble deciding is whether it's even a different species or just an unusually dark individual.

In addition to the mouth shape and orientation differences, longnose dace have tiny (and thus lots of) scales, and a different body shape (more elongate and with a more even depth profile across their length) than stonerollers do. I think you've got it with "largescale" stoneroller. I've added the quotation marks because stonerollers in the Tennessee, Cumberland (below the Falls), most of the Mobile Basin, and portions of some adjacent drainages key out to largescale stoneroller morphologically, but are genetically rather different from topotypic material from the Upper Midwest and the Ozarks. If this seems confusing, well, it is. Hopefully we'll have something more published on this soon.

The fish in the lower left of the 2nd photo does look somewhat different, but it's so out of focus that's it's nearly impossible to tell with 100% certainty. If you were up in a trib to the LP (or near the mouth of an adventitious trib), then I might expect it to be a blacknose dace. The scales on that fish appear too small to be a river chub to my eye, and the color pattern isn't quite right. Sometimes it does come down to gestalt, but I'm not sure anyone could ID that one with complete confidence...

You should be confident in your saffron ID for the top three fish in the third photo. Good eye.

Hope this little exercise has helped.

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#17 Guest_featherbrain_*

Guests

Posted 23 May 2013 - 02:39 PM

Thank you all for your help! I have learned so much over the past couple of days and feel better equipped to tackle fish ID now. Be assured that I will be back (I hope you guys don't mind more posts, I'm so excited about this new field of study for me!).