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Breeding rough shiner?

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#1 Guest_Khai Wan_*

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 04:04 PM

Has anyone successfully breed rough shiner? My group of rough shiners seems to show some color like the picture here:http://forum.nanfa.o...notropis-genus/; but did not see any breeding activity. I basically follow the same technique use for breeding rainbow shiner. My rainbow shiners lay many eggs and I did not place any power head in the breeding tank. Just sponge filter, a plate of gravel, lots of frozen bloodworm, occasion cyclob-eeze and daily NLS pellet. I just follow the articles written by Gerald Potten and Eric Bodrock (http://jojocafe.com/feb08fin.pdf). Thanks.

#2 Guest_Khai Wan_*

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 07:34 PM

The following pictures are taken today. The rough shiners seem to be in breeding mood. So far no eggs. These fishes were collected in Clarke county Alabama in mid December.

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#3 littlen

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 08:13 AM

Nice pictures, Khai. Try sticking a powerhead/submersible pump to the left of your 'chub nest' to create flow directly over the bowl of rocks. That may entice them to all stick together right over top of the nest and stimulate their breeding behavior. You can play with the distance of the bowl from the current, or have multiple bowls to see which they like best. Good luck.
Nick L.

#4 Guest_Orangespotted_*

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 08:16 PM

How long have you had them in there like that? It seems like other minners (granted, not any native ones as far as I know) tend to spawn at the crack of dawn when they are ready. They may just be waiting for you to leave! :P

#5 Guest_Khai Wan_*

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 09:58 AM

I have them in the 20 gallon tank for about 6 months. The one sure thing that would get them excited is the cold water changes as mentioned by various breeders in this forum. I will experiment it with the power head sometime later. A few times I observed, their body is very red, like bright cherry red color. Their body observed from the top is pretty; there are two green iridescent lines running along from neck to caudal tail. Most of the time, their body color like butter-scotch candy.

#6 Guest_Khai Wan_*

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 07:21 PM

This early morning, majority of the rough shiners are in breeding color. The color is intense, with fin being white; bottom body looks like metallic white and the rest of the body cherry red. When came home from office this evening, their breeding color is still there. That leads me to think that they have been breeding all day long. I finally collected more than 100 eggs. Now I'm pretty certain that I do not need any outlet chute or power head to make them spawn. All I need is a sponge filter, a plate of gravel, change 50% water every 3 days and quality food such as NLS Thera-A pellets. In fact I did not feed any frozen bloodworms for the past two weeks and yet they spawn. Also i let my lights on for 14 hours per day.

Along with this line, my colony of rainbow shiners breed the same way using the same method. In fact, they have been in breeding colors for 2 days straight!

Comparing rough shiners and rainbow shiners breeding behavior, the rough shiners are quite aggressive with the strongest male guarding the plate of gravel chasing away any males coming over the gravel; whereas the rainbow shiners, I don't see any single male attempting to stake out any of the territory over the gravel.

Either case, when they are in breeding frenzy, no matter what you attempt to do nearby, they seem to ignore it. Put my hand into the tank, they seem not to care other than to do the breeding first!

#7 Guest_Mysteryman_*

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 10:26 PM

Nice! They look ready to burst.

#8 Guest_gerald_*

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 08:54 AM

Did you get any photos of them spawning, or at least swarming on the nest in spawning color? When I kept rainbow shiners, they would spawn on & off pretty much any time of year, and did not need any seasonal temp or light manipulation. Please save some offspring (both species) to bring to the NANFA meeting auction next year in NC - hope you can come.

#9 Guest_Khai Wan_*

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 09:27 PM

Gerald, my first batch of rough shiner eggs turned out to be fungus; all of the eggs. My second batch of eggs last week (more than 100 eggs) also turn out to be fungus. Strangely, my rainbow shiners lay a lot of eggs on the same day last week. And all of these rainbow eggs hatched successfully with only a few fungus eggs.

Both rough shiner and rainbow shiner eggs are hatch using the same method. The method I have successfully hatch the rainbow eggs is as follows:

(a) Pour out the eggs and sort of rinse it with the same water in the parent tank.
(b) Then put the eggs into a wide plastic square container with depth of perhaps 4 inch of water.
© Then put some elodea into the container.
(d) Then put an air stone in it. The aeration is not mild and yet is not strong.
(e) Then I leave the container with room light - meaning I did not cover the top to make it dark or dim.

Usually in about 36-48 hours, the eggs will hatch.

Also I usually feed the newly hatch tiny fry with egg yolk for the first 3 days. Then I feed them with golden pearl. I have successfully raised the rainbow fry to juvenille (eg. first rainbow batch of eggs).

This second batch of rainbow fry this week, I do the same with egg yolk and now I'm exclusively feeding them with NLS powder. This powder is very fine and is excellent.

I begin to suspect that perhaps the rough shiner is still young, thus infertile eggs causing it to fungus. Or perhaps due to the way rough shiner male staking his territory over the plate of gravel, so only a few fortunate males get to fertilize the female; whereas rainbow males all jump in together a bunch of females without much feud.

The one thing I notice about the color and size of the eggs. Rainbow shiner eggs are smaller and amber in color. Whereas rough shiner eggs are larger and orange in color - rough shiner eggs look prettier than rainbow eggs.

#10 Guest_gerald_*

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 09:47 AM

I wonder if they might be fertile, but are dying due to low O2 before you pour them out of the gravel? Some current at the bottom might help, or marbles instead of real gravel (more space for water movement). Or if you like to tinker ... I've seen egg-collector contraptions that air-lift the eggs from under the gravel into a container or net. For example, here's one used for Synodontis catfish; you could certainly build an open-top version: http://aquacharlotte...3ee1c555091b130

#11 littlen

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 02:12 PM

Something to think of....from your pictures, I notice a lot of extra food (or feces) in and around the nest. This is a likely cause of the fungus. Rotting food/waste will quickly get moldy and fungus will overtake healthy eggs. A constant flow of water (via the powerhead) will keep that material from accumulating in the nest. The other option is to keep it siphoned out, but you run the risk of siphoning out healthy eggs.

I agree with gerald that low O2 levels and subsequent egg mortality might also be to blame. It's hard to tell if you have any other filtration or sources of water turn-over that would oxygenate your tank. Despite your observations of a lone male proving to be the most dominant and keeping others at bay, I doubt low fertility is to blame. Many 'sneaker' males are still able to quickly swim in and fertilize the eggs. Even the dominant male should have enough of the good stuff to take care of all the eggs that are laid.

Try adding a powerhead in front of the nest and/or adding some anti-fungal meds (or salt even) to the water. Rainbows are one of the more easy species to breed and produce a lot of healthy eggs/fry as you know. But keep trying with your Rough's and keep records of everything that you're doing.
Nick L.

#12 Guest_Khai Wan_*

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 02:57 PM

When I collected the rough shiner eggs, they all look very nice, firm, and bright without any hint of fungus. Then I checked the eggs in a few hours time and they all look good. It is only after 24 hours or so, they started to get fungus. I wonder if I need to have some sort of power head (low outlet) to keep blowing the eggs in the container? Another thing I observed last week was that one pregnant female just dive herself into the gravel and lay a lot of eggs while the male was chasing other males away. Maybe that also might explain why eggs are not fertilized. It was lucky for me to observe that one moment.

#13 Guest_tricolor_*

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 04:19 PM

Or you can set up undergravel filter with normal gravel and make the chub nest pile near the outlet, then set up area where fry can enter but not adults somewhere in the tank. It is likely that you won't get hundreds of fry but if you are lucky you can get a few dozens that should be enough.

#14 Guest_Khai Wan_*

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 12:44 PM

This morning, my rainbow shiners and rough shiners are in breeding mood. I did large water changed yesterday and heavily feed them with frozen bloodworms. As I observed so far these past few months, normally they do the breeding early in the morning. For these rainbow and rough shiners, they have been in breeding mood all day today, since this early morning. Enjoy the attached pictures. Notice that rainbow shiners tend to breed together over the plate of gravel whereas for the rough shiners, some alpha male stake his territory over the plate. Also the eggs you see in the picture belongs to rough shiners collected this morning.

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#15 Guest_Khai Wan_*

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 12:52 PM

Photos continue here. For hatching rough shiners eggs, I will aerate the eggs strongly with airstone and then change water every few hours. See if this works (i.e provided the eggs are fertilized correctly). Starting today, I collect the eggs every few hours instead of waiting it till end of the day to collect as I did previously.

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#16 Guest_fundulus_*

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 07:04 PM

Are those rainbows from around Fort Payne in Alabama, or from south of Birmingham?

#17 Guest_Khai Wan_*

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 09:36 PM

Those are from around Fort Payne. They just lay so many eggs today that I have to dump all of them outside my water plant container. These are very prolific - on the average they lay eggs every month. This month alone, they already laid eggs twice. The breeding color you see in the picture did not show pink intensity - it was like glowing pink, very intense. They have been in breeding color since early morning until right now as of typing.

#18 Guest_gerald_*

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 11:08 AM

I think (and hope) that will solve the dying eggs problem. With rainbows, I found that if I did not harvest the eggs under the gravel in the morning soon after spawning, many would die and some of the survivors grew up with crooked spines. I even had a couple severely bent ones that lived many years and produced healthy normal offspring, so I'm pretty sure the scoliosis was developmental (presumably O2 deprivation as eggs) and not genetic. Nice photos - thanks for posting.

Starting today, I collect the eggs every few hours instead of waiting it till end of the day to collect as I did previously.

Edited by gerald, 21 July 2013 - 11:09 AM.

#19 Guest_Khai Wan_*

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 09:02 PM

My rough shiner eggs hatched two days ago. They are tiny and orange in color. Thank you everyone for suggestions and advice. What I did this time was as follows:
(1) Water changed 100% twice everyday.
(2) Have strong aeration with the airstone.
(3) Suck out any fungus eggs whenever is necessary.
(4) Blast water onto the eggs with turkey blaster a few times per day.
(5) No elodea or any other plant.
(6) I picked the eggs out from the breeding tanks every 2 hours - this is crucial.

#20 Guest_EricaLyons_*

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 09:30 PM

Have you thought about using an egg tumbler? They are cheap to make yourself. Here's a video that shows how to make one with just a pair of nylons, a gravel siphon, and an air pump, air line tubing, and air stone.

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