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Another shiner in Missouri

Started by Guest_rndouglas_* , Aug 11 2013 01:37 PM

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10 replies to this topic

#1 Guest_rndouglas_*

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 01:37 PM

Here's one my friends and I ID'd as a Bigeye Shiner (Notropis boops) when we were on the Meramec (northern Ozarks in Missouri) a couple weekends ago.

Our reasoning:

We all said something along the lines of "That's a huge eye!" when we pulled them out of the water.
Pflieger's Fishes of Missouri states, "It is one of the most abundant minnow in streams of the Spring and Meramec River systems," and we figured we were probably catching what was common.
The habitat we found them in was slower, shallower (warmer) margins of the river, with quite a bit of vegetation
To me, it looks like the fish had life colors that matched Pflieger's description. Unfortunately, I did not take any photos of this species in my little acrylic box because I accidentally left it in the car at this stop. I have no idea how many rays are on the anal fin.
It's not readily apparent in these photos, but another (really crummy) photo suggests that the upper jaw does extend past the front of the eye by just a little bit.

Another fish enthusiast suggested it didn't quite look like a Bigeye Shiner due to the lack of dark pigmentation along the edges of the scales. Despite catching several of whatever these guys are, I only took a few photos:

Posted Image

This final photo (not seen by the other fish enthusiast) looks like it may have dark-edging on the scales?

Posted Image

So, long story short.....should I keep diving into Pflieger or is this a Bigeye Shiner?

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#2 Guest_Skipjack_*

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 02:26 PM

I am not great with notropis, but I might spend a bit more time confirming this one. The scales look too fine, and the lateral line seems off. Also it is missing the bridle in front of the eye.

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#3 Guest_rndouglas_*

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 03:41 PM

Will do! I shall report back with my next best guess later.

In case it matters....photos 1 and 2 are the same fish, photo 3 is a different fish from a few miles farther downstream.

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#4 Guest_Skipjack_*

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 07:28 PM

Remember I suck at notropis.

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#5 Guest_AMcCaleb_*

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 11:53 AM

emerald shiner?

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#6 Guest_Skipjack_*

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 12:04 PM

I think that is a better guess, but I would like to see him list his possible notropis, and narrow it down by process of elimination.

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#7 Guest_rndouglas_*

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 05:52 PM

After comparing my time stamps on the photos and my notebook (I log each fish I catch with time, date, length, etc)....the first two images are from the Big Piney, the third is from the Meramec. So, my earlier statement of "from a few miles downstream" is a bit off (to say the least).

Still need to key this one out, but I can say per Fishes of Missouri, Emerald Shiner has never been collected as far upstream on the Meramec as we were, although it has been recorded ~100 miles downstream, and has never been found in the Big Piney. Collectively, we probably caught ~10-15 fish that looked like these in both the Big Piney and Meramec drainages. I'm still thinking they're the same species, but since they're from different drainages I'll have to check on that, too.

Edited by rndouglas, 12 August 2013 - 05:55 PM.

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#8 Guest_Skipjack_*

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 06:45 PM

What notropis are possible?

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#9 Guest_rndouglas_*

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 07:28 PM

Still working on this as I type. The only Notropis in both drainages are:

Bigeye Shiner (N. boops)
Wedgespot Shiner (N. greenei)
Ozark Minnow (N. nubila)
Rosyface Shiner (N. rubellus)

The Big Piney also has:
Blacknose Shiner (N. heterolepis)

The Meramec has (not necessarily in the part of the river we were in):
Bigeye Chub (N. amblops)
Emerald Shiner (N. atherinoides)
Silverjaw Minnow (N. buccatus)
Bigmouth Shiner (N. dorsalis)
Sand Shiner (N. stramineus)
Mimic Shiner (N. volucellus)

I'm getting ~36-37 lateral line scales for the fish in image #3, and it's dorsal fin front base is equidistant from the snout and tail base. Assuming both fish are the same species, that, and the large eye, has me ruling out Rosyface Shiner.

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#10 Guest_rndouglas_*

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 08:37 PM

Can Ozark Minnow have a dirty lower lip (best seen in photo #3)? At this point, I'm between Ozark Minnow and Bigeye Shiner. I'm definitely learning I need to take a lot more photos of these shiners from many different angles in the future. I have all the equipment, so there's really no excuse on my part to not. These guys are making me wish I'd stuck with birds!

Rationale:

Rosyface Shiner - Eliminated because front of dorsal fin base is roughly equidistant between snout/tail base.
Wedgespot Shiner - Just not seeing it? I'm new to this, so please yell at me if I'm off here.
In looking through my other photos (not expecting a firm ID from one crummy photo) from the trip....could this one be a candidate for Wedgespot? I'm wondering because of the dark-olive back (dark edges to the scales), relatively large eye, and the spot at the base of the tail. I get ~38 lateral line scales.
Posted Image

Blacknose Shiner - Eliminated because the lower lip appears to have dark pigmentation.
Bigeye Chub - Eliminated because I'm not seeing a small barbel at the corner of the mouth.
Emerald Shiner - Shouldn't be present in either area we were fishing.
Silverjaw Minnow - Shouldn't be present in either area we were fishing.
Bigmouth Shiner - Shouldn't be present in either area we were fishing.
Sand Shiner - After catching one of these last week, I just feel confident that it looks nothing like these fish. Also, I think these fish have too many lateral line scales for Sand Shiner?
Mimic Shiner - Not present in Big Piney....haven't properly ruled this one out, I suppose.