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Common Shiner (?) in Missouri

Started by Guest_rndouglas_* , Aug 14 2013 04:14 PM

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16 replies to this topic

#1 Guest_rndouglas_*

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 04:14 PM

I've been working through a lot of minnow IDs the past few days, and I thought I was getting the hang of it (counting anal fin rays, lateral line scales, the distance between the front base of the dorsal fin and tail base/snout, etc), then I caught this fish this morning and I have myself stumped.

Bonne Femme Creek in Boone Co., Missouri. I believe this creek drains directly to the Missouri River. Not much flow to the creek this time of year; big chunks of gravel for the substrate.

What I observe:

There are 8 anal fin ray (I think). I'm getting thrown off by the black pigmentation. I have a photo below with how I'm counting. Please correct me if I'm doing it wrong (I really am trying to learn so I don't have to keep asking for help!).

I keep getting around 43 lateral line scales.
Measuring in Photoshop shows the front base of the dorsal fin to be a bit closer to the snout than tail base.

When I add all that up....the only option I end up with for this area is Common Shiner, but I can't convince myself that that's what I have.

I've caught several Common Shiners in this stream and others around here, but they've never looked quite like this. I was immediately struck by how black this fish was overall, and it looked to have faint black vertical bars on its flanks. It has black on all of its fins, and on its chin (a mark against Common Shiner?).

Posted Image

The red in the eye is from the hook....whoops.

Here's a fish I caught about 100 feet downstream back in July 2010 that I called a Common Shiner (just to make sure I have that correct):
Posted Image

Other options for the area (per Fishes of Missouri) that I excluded: Golden Shiner, Creek Chub, Silver Chub, Speckled Chub, Suckermouth Minnow, Emerald Shiner, Rosyface Shiner, Redfin Shiner, Bigmouth Shiner, Red Shiner, Topeka Shiner, Sand Shiner, Ghost Shiner, Western Silvery Minnow, Plains Minnow, Bluntnose Minnow, Fathead Minnow, and Central Stoneroller.

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#2 Guest_Skipjack_*

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 04:33 PM

What are your Lythrurus options?

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#3 Michael Wolfe

Board of Directors

North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 14 August 2013 - 04:37 PM

Thanks Matt... after my screw up the other day I was afraid to say out loud, but that anal fin had me thinking Lythrurus

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

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#4 Guest_gerald_*

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 04:41 PM

Compare the size and shape of scales behind the head - they are much smaller on the "unknown fish" and its mouth looks different too. Also I think there's a 9th anal ray you might have missed, and that dark blotch at the base of the first dorsal ray might be significant. I dont think that one is a Luxilus, but I agree the bottom fish is.

dang - Matt & Michael scooped me and spilled the beans.

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#5 Guest_rndouglas_*

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 04:43 PM

Best I can tell, only Redfin Shiner.

Redfin Shiner can be this....dark? That never even occurred to me! I also completely missed that dark blotch at the base of the dorsal fin.

Am I missing an anal fin ray to the left of what I called "1?"

Edited by rndouglas, 14 August 2013 - 04:46 PM.

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#6 Guest_Dustin_*

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 04:47 PM

That's it then. Probably a female.

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#7 Guest_Skipjack_*

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 04:52 PM

I wasn't trying to spill the whole bowl of beans, just trying to provide an option. Guess it was too blatant.

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#8 Guest_rndouglas_*

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 04:53 PM

Holy moly. I've got a lot to learn about these minnows. What was it that tipped you guys off immediately that it was a Lythurus? Is there something special about the anal fin in that genus?

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#9 Guest_BenCantrell_*

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 04:56 PM

Whenever I see a redfin shiner, it's head makes me think silver carp. The fine scales rule out a lot of other shiners.

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#10 Guest_Skipjack_*

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 04:59 PM

No, that first ray does not count, at least that is my understanding. I believe you counted correctly. I don't always trust anal fin ray counts. But I am certain that your fish is the local garden variety Lythrurus.

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#11 Guest_rndouglas_*

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 05:03 PM

Thanks for all the help! I hope to one day not need so much assistance for all these minnows I keep catching.

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#12 Guest_Skipjack_*

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 05:05 PM

Did not even pay attention to the anal. The dark outlines on the fine scales may help. But mostly it is from seeing enough Lythrurus. I am by no means good at ID's, but after seeing enough fish, eventually you just start to get some "fish sense" and often they just scream at you.

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#13 Guest_Skipjack_*

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 05:10 PM

Thanks for all the help! I hope to one day not need so much assistance for all these minnows I keep catching.

You know, if you just go ahead and join NANFA, you will alleviate any guilt you may be feeling about asking for ID help. You won't end up in therapy confessing your feelings. Trust me- it works.

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#14 Guest_rndouglas_*

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 05:14 PM

I did! I paid for a membership this past Sunday!

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#15 Guest_Skipjack_*

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 05:18 PM

Right on! No therapy for fish ID guilt is in your future. Good thing too, the road can be long and hard.

Thanks for your support!

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#16 Michael Wolfe

Board of Directors

North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 14 August 2013 - 09:48 PM

Going back and looking at the "count the rays" photo... I think you have to count the last one... last ray I mean... on the edge of the edge of the fin... there has to be one there to hold the find together right? So that would be nine...? Right?

And on the membership thing, I will update your status here as soon as I get the confirmation from our treasurer (that's the normal way I get notified... but he has been on an extended bout of jury duty... but I am soon you will get a welcome email from him soon and he copies me usually).

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

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#17 Guest_gerald_*

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 08:13 AM

Yeah the last anal ray is the one you missed; not the short front ray (procurrent ray, not counted). See that fin membrane behind ray #8? The fin begins and ends with a ray, so there must be a ray behind that membrane. However, if those last two rays are joined where they connect to the body, count them as one ray. The small crowded scales behind the head and dark blotch at base of 1st dorsal ray are the Lythrurus features that call out to me.