Here's the skinny...
OK I have a 120 and a 90 gallon quarantine tank in our lab. Both have 2 hanging filters that together filter up to 140 gallons. I have also added floating media bags with bio-balls inside. One tank currently has a large koi that is healing from a large ulceration. The other is a split chambered tank with brown bullhead on one side and various sunfish on the other side. These are currently too small for the main population of fish and need to be grown out. For both tanks this means long term housing in rather barren quarantine tanks.
My problem is that as the tanks begin cycling I am getting a large water chemistry spike. I know this means the water is cycling. However I'm worried that doing too many large water changes to lower the high nitrite and nitrate readings will knock the established bacteria back and lead me back to square one. I was hoping to get some opinions and advice based on other people's experience. Thanks!
Long term quarantine tank care
Started by
Guest_EBParks_*
, Sep 03 2013 10:05 PM
21 replies to this topic
#2
Guest_EricaLyons_*
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Posted 03 September 2013 - 11:01 PM
You won't uncycle the tank unless you use chlorinated water to do the water changes. As long as you dechlorinate the water, the incoming water won't hurt the bacteria. Its needs for population expansion (which are basically unmeasurably low levels of ammonia and nitrite) will be met by the residual nitrogen and it'll continue to grow. As long as there is some, it's excess, and the bacteria population is increasing. Either 0.5 ppm extra or 5 ppm extra, the bacteria is growing as fast as its little bacteria reproduction can go. Food, there is more food, it thinks to itself. But the difference between 0.5 ppm and 5 ppm is pretty important for your fish. One means they feel uncomfortable, and the other means they're dead. Do the water changes. Use dechlorinated water, and keep feeding the tank (fish flakes, pellets, whatever) and it'll cycle.My problem is that as the tanks begin cycling I am getting a large water chemistry spike. I know this means the water is cycling. However I'm worried that doing too many large water changes to lower the high nitrite and nitrate readings will knock the established bacteria back and lead me back to square one.
#3
Guest_EBParks_*
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Posted 04 September 2013 - 12:28 AM
As usual, thanks Erica for your wisdom of aquarium life on the bacterial level! Working on large recirc systems as I usually do, I wanted to make sure I was doing the most effective approach to getting the best cycle in these smaller tanks. I know the alkalinity and pH also have an impact on the bacteria. So I've been keeping them in check as well.
As far as the water changes go, is up to 3 times a week OK as long as the water quality demands it i.e. high ammonia or nitrites? Is 50% too much and I should lean more toward 25%, or should I base it on how high the negative readings are? Thanks again Erica!
As far as the water changes go, is up to 3 times a week OK as long as the water quality demands it i.e. high ammonia or nitrites? Is 50% too much and I should lean more toward 25%, or should I base it on how high the negative readings are? Thanks again Erica!
#4
Guest_EBParks_*
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Posted 04 September 2013 - 12:37 AM
On that same note: I have 6 other smaller quarantine aquariums that are used on an as needed basis, usually for medication or new fish on the smaller side. What is your opinion on keeping these tanks running and cycled using other fish. I mention it because we have a stream and small lake with California natives and introduced green sunfish. As we sample the water bodies, we usually remove the greens. It gave me the idea of potentially using some to keep the small tanks cycled and moving them as the need to quarantine program fish arose.
#5
littlen
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Posted 04 September 2013 - 08:12 AM
Josh, continue to do the water changes as you have in order to reduce the nitrogenous waste products. Eventually the biological filtration will catch up. If your fish haven't died yet, and continue to eat/thrive things should be ok. Be sure to constantly monitor your NH4/NO2 levels and you can cut back on the amount of water you remove each time as you see the values decrease. I would say 50% is plenty, but you shouldn't have to do that much each time. What are your actual values? I am a fan of smaller, more frequent water changes. (Remember, you can induce stress by adding large volumes of new, "clean" water all the same.....having a different pH, Alk, temp....). In regards to keeping your smaller QX tanks biologically active--you should. Whether you keep a few fish in them, or 'feed' them (I use a dissolved ammonium chloride solution). If you don't keep them active, you'll run into these same problems in the future as soon as you add your next batch of QX fish.
Nick L.
#6
Guest_EricaLyons_*
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Posted 04 September 2013 - 08:28 AM
As long as you dechlorinate the incoming water and match the incoming water to the tank's:As far as the water changes go, is up to 3 times a week OK as long as the water quality demands it i.e. high ammonia or nitrites? Is 50% too much and I should lean more toward 25%, or should I base it on how high the negative readings are?
- temperature
- pH
- hardness (I measure using GH)
- salinity
But anyway, my point is, water changes are all about matching the parameters the fish were used to. If your tap water is drastically different than your tank water, then a partial water change every day for several days in a row is better, or drip acclimate the fish over the course of several hours. If the incoming water has the same parameters as the tank water and is dechlorinated, then it doesn't matter how much you change. For people who don't have a test kit and don't know if their tap water matches their tank water, it's safe to do a 1/4 to 1/3 water change every day to keep ammonia down in a cycling tank.
#7
Guest_EricaLyons_*
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Posted 04 September 2013 - 08:43 AM
You don't need fish to cycle a tank or keep a cycle going. Ammonia comes proteins degrading. Unless they lose a limb or something, living creatures don't usually contribute to the degrading proteins. The source of all that ammonia is the fish food you're adding every day to feed the fish. It turns out that fish flakes will rot even if there aren't any fish present to eat them. Uneaten fish flakes rot just fine on their own. So as long as you continue to add fish flakes every day and do partial water changes to keep the nitrate under 30 ppm, the tank will stay cycled and ready for your fish whenever you want to add them.On that same note: I have 6 other smaller quarantine aquariums that are used on an as needed basis, usually for medication or new fish on the smaller side. What is your opinion on keeping these tanks running and cycled using other fish.
#8
Guest_gerald_*
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Posted 04 September 2013 - 10:18 AM
An aquatic turtle (mud, musk, snapper) makes a good "filter-feeder" (source of ammonia) for keeping nitrifying bacteria active in an intermittently-used quarantine tank, and is less likely to harbor fish disease organisms than a fish would be. I agree with Erica, there's no such thing as "too much" water change if the WQ params are close enough to not cause harm. I did a 100% change a few days ago on a really filthy 10-gal with mouth-brooding Bettas, where the pH had dropped below 6. I refilled it with neutral water and they spawned within a few minutes. Sometimes a little shock can be your friend.
#9
littlen
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Posted 04 September 2013 - 12:18 PM
+1 to Gerald's comment above about the 'shock'. Many of our temperate fish (and tropcials for that matter) rely on environmental cues other than the amount of daylight to start the breeding season. Heavy spring rains can dramatically alter the water conditions/parameters such that it kickstarts the breeding behavior.
Nick L.
#10
Guest_gzeiger_*
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Posted 04 September 2013 - 04:25 PM
Fish are easier to remember to feed than an empty tank, but Gerald has a good point about fish potentially harboring pathogens.
#11
Guest_EricaLyons_*
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Posted 04 September 2013 - 04:27 PM
A once a week piece of chicken/turkey/deli meat/cocktail shrimp/dog kibbles would work too.Fish are easier to remember to feed than an empty tank...
#12
Guest_gzeiger_*
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Posted 06 September 2013 - 12:41 PM
You don't want to use rotting meat. Some kinds of pathogens might be able to survive on that.
#13
Guest_EBParks_*
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Posted 06 September 2013 - 02:26 PM
Thanks for all the advice! To update, the ammonia & nitrite levels are much more under control now with an increase in water changes. The only challenge has been keeping up with the pH and alkalinity levels that constantly drop due to water changes and the actual nitrification process of the bacteria.
I think based on the ease of access and convenience. It sounds like dropping a little flake food into my empty quarantine tanks will be the route I take for keeping them cycling.
I think based on the ease of access and convenience. It sounds like dropping a little flake food into my empty quarantine tanks will be the route I take for keeping them cycling.
#14
Guest_EricaLyons_*
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Posted 06 September 2013 - 02:38 PM
Oh goodness yes, definitely use food grade meat. I didn't mean to imply otherwise.You don't want to use rotting meat. Some kinds of pathogens might be able to survive on that.
#15
Guest_Skipjack_*
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Posted 06 September 2013 - 02:39 PM
Josh, a tank does not really cycle, a filter does. Can you keep extra sponge filters in active tanks, and simply move sponge filters into the quarantine tank as needed? I like these. http://business.acce...ultimatesponge/
#16
Guest_EricaLyons_*
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Posted 06 September 2013 - 02:53 PM
I'm not really sure what you're talking about with this one. I've never used a pH adjuster in any of my tanks in an attempt to help the bacteria. Can you explain?The only challenge has been keeping up with the pH and alkalinity levels that constantly drop due to water changes and the actual nitrification process of the bacteria.
#17
Guest_Skipjack_*
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Posted 06 September 2013 - 03:32 PM
I'm not really sure what you're talking about with this one. I've never used a pH adjuster in any of my tanks in an attempt to help the bacteria. Can you explain?
I'm not sure either Erica, but I am guessing that Josh is more concerned with adjusting his pH for the benefit of the fish. Maybe his water supply, and the nitrification are pushing his pH in a way that is not correct for said fish species. Adjusting pH is really tricky because of the water buffering capacity. When I was trying to lower pH for an aquaponics system, it took me two weeks of a daily drip of muriatic acid. After the 2000 gallon system was at the right pH for both fish and plants, I had to compensate if I did a water change. Just guessing.
#18
Guest_gerald_*
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Posted 08 September 2013 - 08:19 PM
Bacterial nitrification of ammonium to nitrate is an acid-producing process, so with a big fish load you need to replace the alkalinity frequently.
I'm not really sure what you're talking about with this one. I've never used a pH adjuster in any of my tanks in an attempt to help the bacteria. Can you explain?
#19
Guest_EricaLyons_*
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Posted 08 September 2013 - 10:03 PM
Is it significant?Bacterial nitrification of ammonium to nitrate is an acid-producing process, so with a big fish load you need to replace the alkalinity frequently.
I looked up the reaction and I see now what your saying.
Is it enough to change the pH in an aquarium?NH4+ + 2 O2 >> NO3- + H2O + 2 H+
#20
Guest_gerald_*
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Posted 09 September 2013 - 12:11 PM
In a densely planted 55 gal with Elassoma and Dario - NO.
In commercial aquaculture or a public aquarium with BIG fish - YES, and FAST.
from Virginia Tech: http://web1.cnre.vt....ateAquaSys.html
AMMONIA ESTIMATE by FISH WEIGHT: On the average about 25 mg (milligrams) of ammonia per day is produced for every 100 grams (3.5 ounces) of fish in the tank. Therefore, in a tank containing 1,000 striped bass fingerlings each weighing 75 g (75,000 g total fish weight), the daily ammonia load produced by all the fish would be 18.8 grams.
AMMONIA ESTIMATE by FOOD WEIGHT: For manufactured fish feed with standard protein levels of 30 to 40 percent, simply multiply the total weight of the feed (in grams) times .025 to get the ammonia load. For example, if the fingerling stripers are fed 1 pound (454 grams) of pelleted feed per day, the amount of ammonia produced would be about 11.4 grams per day.
I'm not sure if these estimates are based on ammonia from the gills and urine only (assuming poop is removed from the system; a common practice in tank aquaculture) or if includes the ammonia from poop that decomposes in the tank (like most hobby aquariums).
In commercial aquaculture or a public aquarium with BIG fish - YES, and FAST.
from Virginia Tech: http://web1.cnre.vt....ateAquaSys.html
AMMONIA ESTIMATE by FISH WEIGHT: On the average about 25 mg (milligrams) of ammonia per day is produced for every 100 grams (3.5 ounces) of fish in the tank. Therefore, in a tank containing 1,000 striped bass fingerlings each weighing 75 g (75,000 g total fish weight), the daily ammonia load produced by all the fish would be 18.8 grams.
AMMONIA ESTIMATE by FOOD WEIGHT: For manufactured fish feed with standard protein levels of 30 to 40 percent, simply multiply the total weight of the feed (in grams) times .025 to get the ammonia load. For example, if the fingerling stripers are fed 1 pound (454 grams) of pelleted feed per day, the amount of ammonia produced would be about 11.4 grams per day.
I'm not sure if these estimates are based on ammonia from the gills and urine only (assuming poop is removed from the system; a common practice in tank aquaculture) or if includes the ammonia from poop that decomposes in the tank (like most hobby aquariums).
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